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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5120
Location: Iowa City
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 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is a northern/southern Europe thing. Italy and parts of Spain fall into the "kick out the gyspy bastards" camp.
And they certainly have done so, historically.
The anti-muslim thing, on the other hand, seems more pronounced in the north from this side of the Atlantic.
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thought Spain was more about keeping out Africans?
And Italy is about keeping out everybody. Never forget that.
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2163
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Yeah, I think you're exaggerating a bit, Sam. I mean, Europe is a pretty racist place - though mostly towards Muslims - but it's not as bad as you seem to think. |
For the last time, Willem, Muslims are not a "race." Neither are Roma. But yeah, other than that. |
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Sam the Eagle
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2276
Location: 192.168.0.1
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam wrote: | | And yet, given the immense hatred towards the roma throughout europe, it's being utilized as the easiest way possible to score easy political points. They might as well drop the pretense and start official state Kick a Roma days. |
There is deep suspicion against Roma by and large, given their way of life and 'hen thieves' reputations. But "immense hatred", going Godwin?, nope, that's pretty daft.
Reactions differs from country to country. Italy and Spain are not the least united the way a foreigner would think. Northern Italy scorns Southern Italy with a passion, we've already mentioned Belgium some place else, Spain is a puzzle. Germany's landers too differs.
Next, integration or lack of depends on each country social norms. And those differs so much that I can't think of a way to sum them up easily. Suffice to say that minorities are treated differently from country to country or within one country. e.g Holland and France faces very different problems given their respective social norms. UK may be a case apart as immigrants are hailing from different places/cultures.
On Roma, one should note there is a marked difference as the problem is seen as a recent one. It's not established Roma nationals that are targeted, or are now as collateral damages, but mostly the newly arrived ones from Romania/Bulgaria and other former Soviet satellites.
And no, as explained above, there is nothing simple in the reasoning behind the current fever, I wrote a wall of text yet I feel there was a lot more to cover before explaining it proerly. This is Europe we're talking about, Medicis etc...remember them?.
Even a complete cuntstrudel like the current French pres. doesn't do things like this for the simple kick of getting his 'Two minute Hate'.
So stop being simplistic, you sound like Him on his bad days.
@Mizike/Willem. The "muslim" issue warrants a different thread of his own as it is too a complex one. And Guest is right.
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Guest wrote: | | Willem wrote: | | Yeah, I think you're exaggerating a bit, Sam. I mean, Europe is a pretty racist place - though mostly towards Muslims - but it's not as bad as you seem to think. |
For the last time, Willem, Muslims are not a "race." Neither are Roma. But yeah, other than that. |
You've never said that, so don't take that tone with me. Of course they aren't a race, but it's clearly tied to racism. What do you think about when somebody says "Muslim"? Do you see a white or a black person? No, you see an Arab. To say the whole Muslim thing isn't tied to race is ludicrous.
That said, you're right. I was using "racist" where I should've been saying "discriminating". They're easily confused.
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attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose |
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Michael
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10431
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| (if you get right down to it the definition of human race is ill defined hence racism isn't even possible. Pedantically true? yes. Useful? no.) |
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Major Tom
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| has "bigot" really fallen that far out of fashion? |
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LD!
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1140
Location: Just west of the Atlantic
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | "Muslim"? Do you see a white or a black person? No, you see an Arab. To say the whole Muslim thing isn't tied to race is ludicrous.
That said, you're right. I was using "racist" where I should've been saying "discriminating". They're easily confused. |
That's actually dependent I think black person. But then again I live in an area with a heavy Somali population and very little "Arab" people. |
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2163
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Guest wrote: | | Willem wrote: | | Yeah, I think you're exaggerating a bit, Sam. I mean, Europe is a pretty racist place - though mostly towards Muslims - but it's not as bad as you seem to think. |
For the last time, Willem, Muslims are not a "race." Neither are Roma. But yeah, other than that. |
You've never said that, so don't take that tone with me. Of course they aren't a race, but it's clearly tied to racism. What do you think about when somebody says "Muslim"? Do you see a white or a black person? No, you see an Arab. To say the whole Muslim thing isn't tied to race is ludicrous.
That said, you're right. I was using "racist" where I should've been saying "discriminating". They're easily confused. |
Hmm. I remember I corrected you twice for saying it was racist to persecute... I believe it was Romani at that time, too, but it's possible I could have confused you with someone else. Oh well. Sorry! My bad.
As for Muslims, there's plenty of Muslims in Sweden who are, pardon the expression, "very white." In fact, the first Muslim I met was a Swede. But I get what you're trying to say. |
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Sam
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 8840
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Yeah, I think you're exaggerating a bit, Sam. I mean, Europe is a pretty racist place - though mostly towards Muslims - but it's not as bad as you seem to think. |
Systemically, the Roma people are facing a level of persecution in europe that is hard to parallel anywhere else in the civilized world. I guess my verbiage is specific to that measurement. |
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Sam
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 8840
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Sam the Eagle wrote: |
There is deep suspicion against Roma by and large, given their way of life and 'hen thieves' reputations. But "immense hatred", going Godwin?, nope, that's pretty daft.
So stop being simplistic, you sound like Him on his bad days. |
Perhaps I am simply trying to query on specifics related to an issue I want to know more about, and you are taking it in poor taste and reacting with unwarranted disdain. |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 9308
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Unwarranted is a matter of opinion. It's possible to view your comments as ethnocentric and detached from their perception of events from within their cultures. Which is different from saying either of you is wrong, just that cross-cultural differences are probably best discussed with tact. Something I've failed at myself quite recently.
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Thy Brilliance
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3213
Location: Relative
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sam wrote: | Relevant info:
| Quote: | The French government had planned to send 93 Gypsies, or Roma, back to Romania on Thursday, but at least 18 didn't turn up for their flights, officials said.
The expulsions come amid French concerns over how to deal with mobile populations in the expanded version of the European Union. Over the past decade, Central and East European countries including Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, whose populations are generally poorer than West Europeans, have joined the EU. Most of Europe's estimated 11 million Gypsies live in the east. The EU guarantees freedom of movement to citizens of member states, but only on condition that they can support themselves.
French Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux said the problem was illegal camps. "We are enforcing simple rules," he said. "One cannot just illegally occupy land without authorization."
The returns on Thursday were part of a "voluntary" repatriation program, in which each adult is granted €300 (about $390) and each minor €100 for returning to his or her country of origin. Those who stay too long in France and who don't choose to return under the program voluntarily will later receive an order from the government to leave the country anyway, though such orders are sometimes difficult to enforce.
France has been expelling foreign Gypsies for the past few years—an estimated 12,000 were deported in 2009, according to Alexandre Le Clève, a spokesman for advocacy group Rom Europe. There have been 25 rounds of expulsions already this year, according to the Interior Ministry, which didn't give the total number of people involved. |
insofar as I understand the situation, what with the protests, anti-roma violence, expulsions from various assorted sundry european states including the big one in italy, roma are so hated over there that it isn't even funny, and a kid who grows up roma will have to deal with poverty, low life expectancy, and a phenomenal amount of cultural prejudice.
However, on the other hand, the Roma don't help themselves any, either. Theirs is a sociopathic and entrapping culture that is rife with violence, drug use, child abuse, and children are trained essentially to not regard outsiders as anything but easy marks.
Even the most tolerant people I know say that they absolutely, absolutely do not trust roma and that the camps are terrible things that they really do want as far away from them as possible. Most people encounter roma as grifters and swindlers who 'come by' to help you put your bags in your car outside the supermarket, and children are enlisted and given costumes to constantly and aggressively panhandle alongside their parents.
so.
idk what you all think about the whole deal. |
They will murder people for money.
Blackmarket organs, child trafficking, crazy shit.
You cannot defend these assholes and their lifestyle, and I say lifestyle because it is a lifestyle of choice.
There exist occasions where extremely tolerant people have given them jobs out of a family store, only to be completely robbed blind.
I have no pity for them, there are simply too many reasons to list. |
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Thy Brilliance
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3213
Location: Relative
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: Abstraction only makes people crazy. |
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| Dogen wrote: | | Unwarranted is a matter of opinion. It's possible to view your comments as ethnocentric and detached from their perception of events from within their cultures. Which is different from saying either of you is wrong, just that cross-cultural differences are probably best discussed with tact. Something I've failed at myself quite recently. |
Blunt statements solve problems faster. |
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nathan
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6269
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Having seen your track record, I assume that's conjecture.
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