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Europe cannot achieve orgasm unless it evicts a Roma
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picturesofsky



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3072
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread trolldestroyed. Good work fella.


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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Gee, this happens everytime I take the burden of proof Reply with quote

I take it you couldn't find politically correct counter evidence?
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahaha, I'm sorry, so you're ducking out of it by saying that you never inferred you meant all Roma, but instead were stating
"They will murder people for money."
intending us to infer that you meant
"People who murder people for money will murder people for money?"
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously have no idea how you talk to people in real life without them kicking you in the head.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as if he expects his intentions to change the words he's already used even as he modifies his intentions
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: I also make people laugh Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
I seriously have no idea how you talk to people in real life without them kicking you in the head.


I have the voice of an angel.

Plus, they don't complain or nitpick over moot details.

Or argue meaningless semantics for politically correct statements.

You know, they don't constantly look for ways to criticize others in order to make up for their huge insecurities.

Especially when talking about recent deaths or kidnappings.

Which happened.

In reality.

You know.

Just saying.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's nitpicking when I call you a bigot for inferring part of a group -- no matter how prevalent that part -- mean that all people in that particular group behave the same way.

I am not denying that members of Roma communities, or in some cases whole communities of Roma commit terrible acts on other humans, Roma and non-Roma alike. I am saying your statement, to me, came across as extremely bigoted.

Sorry that you consider me asking you to consider not referring to one large group of people as if they all exhibit identical negative behavior considerably pedantic.

But please, don't let me stop you flailing about, whining about political correctness.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Everybody lives in a dream world. Reply with quote

Anytime the economy goes downward, there is always an increase of nationalism and xenophobia.

A bigot treats some people differently than they normally would with others.

Go to a European country, try hanging out with them. I have. With enough effort I could pass off as one of them. Even friends with some. I can see how even the good honest hard working ones think. Like I said, it is a lifestyle, a mentality, not a race.

I've watched them force their children wash random strangers cars with dirty soap water, without the stranger's permission, only to guilt the random stranger into giving them money with their crocodile tears and puppy dog eyes.

I've seen groups of em beat up random citizens, including some of my family members for money. They carry weapons, police usually won't bother with em because they'll bring out the whole family cause chaos etc.

But I'm just a bigot, my eyes sure are racist, and forget about judging people by the company they keep.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work Thy. Denis shows an impressive mastery of cuss words, but hypocrisy isn't his forte. You, otoh...They will appreciate.

---------

Back to the topic at hand.

Taking France' local politics out of the picture, the main issue regarding Roms is not one of race but one of jobs.

Necessary foreword:

I will differentiate the established Roms tribes and the newcomers hailing from former Soviet republics by choice. The first group isn't targeted the same way the second is.

As with the mid 70', EU is now straining to integrate new nations in its fold. Ther are quite a few differences are local institutions are facing new problems. Fresh off Franco Spain was then as low, economically, as Romania or Bulgaria are now. Yet now Spain's standard of living is on par with that of the rest of western Europe. So, one would expect to see both the newly integrated countries to follow the same pattern?. Quite not. Since Greece's economic downfall last winter, it's a very sensitive issue to raise funds (even if graft/corruption is held in check) to upgrade the newcomers. As local politics happens too, a common ploy used is to blame Brussel for one own failings.

1-
A side effect is that those countries cannot improve themselves that much on their own. Last I checked, Bulgaria was deprived of promised funds as it wasn't tackling their corruption issue seriously (read not at all). It was last Fall I think. But as they are signatory of the Schengen treaty, and next year should be fully integrated, their citizen have the right to travel from one place to the next without control.

2-
Roms fills the unskilled labour workforce in these countries. They can gain much more in a day begging in the richer parts of Europe than in doing backbreaking jobs remaining where they are. Also, and I must mention France's law here. Unlike many, if not all not sure, it follows the "jus soli" principle, meaning if you're born on French soil, then you can ask for French citizenship. That kind of appeal is obvious to everyone.

The point I'm making is quite simple. As long as said countries doesn't improve themselves, the richer parts of Europe will see a mass of their poorer denizen trying to improve their lives or get a better one for their kids. It wouldn't be the first time it happens.

But, and here is the Roms' problem, they were barely educated in the first place, so can't expect to aim high yet. Their kids may do later on, maybe (see book ref below). So, yes it's easier for them to get shady jobs in the first place. It doesn't make [i them[/i] 'genetically' tailored to crime. Various polls indicate that the common joe is aware of this (those I looked up were in French, feel free to ask).

3-
What can be done?.

National politics will always happens, that's an issue for each country to solve. Raising Romania/Bulgaria standard's of living is too a big part of the issue. That won't be achieved in a while though.

Locally, there are organizations that are trying to improve their lives, see this for example.


Last,

I mentionned that book long ago in the reading thread, but get your hands on Jan Yoor's "The Gypsies". It's interesting (even if amazon asks for a hetfy price) peek in their society.

Another wall of text, full of typo I'm sure. Eff it.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting point about education, it reminds me of the importance desegregated schooling held in the US's civil rights era as the best hope for black people to break out of the poverty cycle that institutionalized racism held them to (almost to the man) for so long.

Unfortunately it looks like the only copy of The Gypsies is in the South Carolina State Library, not any branch of the local system.
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picturesofsky



Joined: 13 May 2008
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Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Everybody lives in a dream world. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
But I'm just a bigot, my eyes sure are racist, and forget about judging people by the company they keep.


So why the fuck didn't you post this in the first place, rather than coming out with unsupported generalist statements seemingly just to rile people? If you have a good point, just fucking make it, don't be a cock first, THEN make it.
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5125
Location: Iowa City

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Everybody lives in a dream world. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Anytime the economy goes downward, there is always an increase of nationalism and xenophobia.

A bigot treats some people differently than they normally would with others.

Go to a European country, try hanging out with them. I have. With enough effort I could pass off as one of them. Even friends with some. I can see how even the good honest hard working ones think. Like I said, it is a lifestyle, a mentality, not a race.

I've watched them force their children wash random strangers cars with dirty soap water, without the stranger's permission, only to guilt the random stranger into giving them money with their crocodile tears and puppy dog eyes.

I've seen groups of em beat up random citizens, including some of my family members for money. They carry weapons, police usually won't bother with em because they'll bring out the whole family cause chaos etc.

But I'm just a bigot, my eyes sure are racist, and forget about judging people by the company they keep.


Just like the micks, pollocks, and jews, amirite?
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for what it is worth:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/23/eu-roma-racism-discrimination
Quote:
Racism and discrimination across the EU is far more widespread than previously thought, with Europe's estimated 12 million Roma, or Gypsy, population, being a special target, an EU agency warns.

In what is claimed to be the most comprehensive survey of victimisation suffered by Europe's minority and immigrant communities, the EU's Fundamental Rights Agency said "racially motivated crime is an everyday experience".

While all minorities reported disturbing levels of harassment, the Roma, scattered mainly across central Europe and the Balkans, and black people, were particularly singled out for abuse, the survey said.

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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really didn't see this thread going this way at all.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
wow!

This is really the pot calling the kettle foaming at the mouth when the kettle doesn't really seem to be foaming at the mouth all that much but the pot is still screaming FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING KETTLE CUNT, FUCK YOU and just foaming all over the shop.

Shut up, Hadley. Sam the Eagle (the Good Sam) is right. The Bad Sam isn't adding anything to the discussion, in so far as there is one. He's just going 'Lol no' when presented with anything resembling an opinion different from his.


Take a look at my last response to you. I don't know what kind of a bad day someone has to be having in order to parse that into 'lol no.' Especially given that I'm openly curious about the issue and want to understand the prejudices and the subject matter better.

My statement about the persecution that roma face on a day to day basis is a fair one that can be backed up by studies about racism in developed places - what mizikwe has found helps - and I am also wondering what tangents can be found historically, but for now the thy sideshow will suffice.
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