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Remember the victims of 9/11
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Iowa City

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, really, that was totally absurd, Willem. Even if Monkey was being a dick, that's no excuse for acting as if Leopold II wasn't a mass-murderer on the Hitler scale. Because he was.
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Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
Wait, what?

No, Leopold the Deuce was pretty much the worst thing to ever happen to the African continent. Don't be ridiculous.

Which does not exonerate the US from actions in Latin America nor from other parts of the world.

I'm not denying that, don't worry. About a fourth of the population of Congo at the time was killed under his reign, after all. What I said was that the destabilisation caused by the assassination of Lumumba and the following support to various dictators, mainly Mobutu, resonates more to this day than Leopold II's acts.

But if you're asking which was worse, on its own, then yeah, Leopold II was pretty much king. In the end, it doesn't matter which one's worse. They both shouldn't have happened and they were both Horrible and Shit.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disclaimer, then: I think Leopold II was a horrible cunt. He had his private army rape, kill and enslave the population of Congo and if he were alive today, he'd certainly be tried as on charges of genocide. And he'd get convicted as well. In all of Belgian history, there's little that can top his horrible acts, if any. In comparison to most colonial regimes, his was one of the worst, if not the worst. And looking at other regimes, that means a lot.

Trust me, I'm no fan of the guy.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fucking belgians, how do they work?
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we'll take your mobile and then run away
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I guess with Leopold, belgium gets to claim more power-related misery extended per capita in a hundred or so year timeline but I'm pretty sure America will keep bombing their way up.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now hey there, little buddy. Don't sell yourself short. I'm sure if you count the Indians, the Filipinos, everybody during all those wars and if we're counting indirect kills, you'll catch up in no time. Don't give up hope, you'll get there.

This does raise the question: if Belgium splits up, do we share said power-related misery? Do we split it up? 50/50 or 60/40? Do we each get to claim it fully or can we pretend it's the other side that did all the genocidin'?
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You pretend it's the other side that did all the genociding, no question, and you don't ever let them forget that it was all their fault forever. Geeze, you Europeans are so backwards sometimes - don't you have to take political science classes in school over there? This is basic stuff, dude.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Setting aside one day to act all somber 'n stuff about it and spout a bunch of horseshit about "unity" and "responsibility" before you go back and savage each other over it is permissible, however.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as PR-moves go, I don't think setting aside a day to talk about unity and responsibility while remembering the genocide your country caused will go over well.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, unity might not be the best word...maybe more "friendship" as the ideal you abandon once the day ends.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll call it Hand-Choppin' Day. By calling it that, we show that we're truly over the whole ordeal and can move on and laugh about it.
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
If you feel so bad about it invest time or money in making it right, spending time "feeling bad" is worse than useless to the people actually affected by it. Knowing it occured should be enough for not making the same mistake. Feeling guilt for things you had nothing to do with is fucking stupid.

By Jove! You've disproven empathy! That's amazing!

You and Monkey are using the phrase "feeling bad" in completely different ways. He seems to mean "feeling guilty," which is a separate issue from empathy. So: did you mean to imply that Americans should feel guilty for things America did before they were born? If so, you're wrong. Or did you mean that Americans should feel empathy for the suffering caused by America before they were born? If so, you're right.

Either way, they are not the same issue.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm right.

And I knew that he didn't get what I meant. I just didn't feel like explaining it to him, as it would've probably had little effect.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
I'm right.

And I knew that he didn't get what I meant. I just didn't feel like explaining it to him, as it would've probably had little effect.


Maybe maybe not, What willem, do you recommend that a currently alive person living paycheck to paycheck born after the events happened actually DO about atrocities committed in the past?

Because from where I sit, being aware that it happened, and being prepared to work against it happening again is pretty much it. Sitting around dwelling on past issues and 'feeling bad' does little more than increase the amount of unhappiness in the world. When I feel empathy for a homeless person on the street i can buy him a sandwich or give him some money. When an organization actually working to fix a problem I feel empathy for approaches me I can donate money or time. What reaction other than "Damn that sucks" can you expect from horrible shit from the past being brought up. What exactly do you expect people to DO about it?
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