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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5120
Location: Iowa City
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:00 am Post subject: |
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No, really, that was totally absurd, Willem. Even if Monkey was being a dick, that's no excuse for acting as if Leopold II wasn't a mass-murderer on the Hitler scale. Because he was.
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Mizike wrote: | Wait, what?
No, Leopold the Deuce was pretty much the worst thing to ever happen to the African continent. Don't be ridiculous.
Which does not exonerate the US from actions in Latin America nor from other parts of the world. |
I'm not denying that, don't worry. About a fourth of the population of Congo at the time was killed under his reign, after all. What I said was that the destabilisation caused by the assassination of Lumumba and the following support to various dictators, mainly Mobutu, resonates more to this day than Leopold II's acts.
But if you're asking which was worse, on its own, then yeah, Leopold II was pretty much king. In the end, it doesn't matter which one's worse. They both shouldn't have happened and they were both Horrible and Shit.
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Disclaimer, then: I think Leopold II was a horrible cunt. He had his private army rape, kill and enslave the population of Congo and if he were alive today, he'd certainly be tried as on charges of genocide. And he'd get convicted as well. In all of Belgian history, there's little that can top his horrible acts, if any. In comparison to most colonial regimes, his was one of the worst, if not the worst. And looking at other regimes, that means a lot.
Trust me, I'm no fan of the guy.
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Snorri
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10704
Location: hiding the decline.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:31 am Post subject: |
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fucking belgians, how do they work?
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
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we'll take your mobile and then run away
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Sam
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 8832
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| So I guess with Leopold, belgium gets to claim more power-related misery extended per capita in a hundred or so year timeline but I'm pretty sure America will keep bombing their way up. |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Now hey there, little buddy. Don't sell yourself short. I'm sure if you count the Indians, the Filipinos, everybody during all those wars and if we're counting indirect kills, you'll catch up in no time. Don't give up hope, you'll get there.
This does raise the question: if Belgium splits up, do we share said power-related misery? Do we split it up? 50/50 or 60/40? Do we each get to claim it fully or can we pretend it's the other side that did all the genocidin'?
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CTrees
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3608
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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You pretend it's the other side that did all the genociding, no question, and you don't ever let them forget that it was all their fault forever. Geeze, you Europeans are so backwards sometimes - don't you have to take political science classes in school over there? This is basic stuff, dude.
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5243
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Setting aside one day to act all somber 'n stuff about it and spout a bunch of horseshit about "unity" and "responsibility" before you go back and savage each other over it is permissible, however. |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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As far as PR-moves go, I don't think setting aside a day to talk about unity and responsibility while remembering the genocide your country caused will go over well.
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5243
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, unity might not be the best word...maybe more "friendship" as the ideal you abandon once the day ends. |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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We'll call it Hand-Choppin' Day. By calling it that, we show that we're truly over the whole ordeal and can move on and laugh about it.
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nathan
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6269
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | If you feel so bad about it invest time or money in making it right, spending time "feeling bad" is worse than useless to the people actually affected by it. Knowing it occured should be enough for not making the same mistake. Feeling guilt for things you had nothing to do with is fucking stupid. |
By Jove! You've disproven empathy! That's amazing! |
You and Monkey are using the phrase "feeling bad" in completely different ways. He seems to mean "feeling guilty," which is a separate issue from empathy. So: did you mean to imply that Americans should feel guilty for things America did before they were born? If so, you're wrong. Or did you mean that Americans should feel empathy for the suffering caused by America before they were born? If so, you're right.
Either way, they are not the same issue.
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm right.
And I knew that he didn't get what I meant. I just didn't feel like explaining it to him, as it would've probably had little effect.
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attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2711
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | I'm right.
And I knew that he didn't get what I meant. I just didn't feel like explaining it to him, as it would've probably had little effect. |
Maybe maybe not, What willem, do you recommend that a currently alive person living paycheck to paycheck born after the events happened actually DO about atrocities committed in the past?
Because from where I sit, being aware that it happened, and being prepared to work against it happening again is pretty much it. Sitting around dwelling on past issues and 'feeling bad' does little more than increase the amount of unhappiness in the world. When I feel empathy for a homeless person on the street i can buy him a sandwich or give him some money. When an organization actually working to fix a problem I feel empathy for approaches me I can donate money or time. What reaction other than "Damn that sucks" can you expect from horrible shit from the past being brought up. What exactly do you expect people to DO about it?
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