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Wikileaks dropping the dox redux
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with this case, I think, is that the prosecution hasn't been straightforward in what he's being charged with. In Sweden, officially, he's not been charged with anything, and still has not been charged with anything. The charges you see or hear are by the London authorities who arrested Assange. In Sweden he's still being accused, but not charged with anything.

The only thing I could take from that article was the penal passage about rape. Then it pretty much presents a similar rhetoric like in the article I linked, if not more. The irony is not lost, believe me.

Anyway, what I meant by 'reasonable doubt,' I didn't mean how rape victims usually behave after they've been raped, but how the facts seems to change from one instance to the other. That the facts changed, that Ardin's statement still says she was raped on the morning on the 14th of August when her [deleted] tweets promptly state otherwise and plain falsifies her claims, then that's 'reasonable doubt.' Since your friends are rape victim advocates, would rape victims laud their rapists and consequently throw parties in their honour the day after the alleged rape? I realise all rape victims deal with it in their own way, but that's a bit strong, isn't it?
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
The problem with this case, I think, is that the prosecution hasn't been straightforward in what he's being charged with. In Sweden, officially, he's not been charged with anything, and still has not been charged with anything. The charges you see or hear are by the London authorities who arrested Assange. In Sweden he's still being accused, but not charged with anything.

The only thing I could take from that article was the penal passage about rape. Then it pretty much presents a similar rhetoric like in the article I linked, if not more. The irony is not lost, believe me.

Anyway, what I meant by 'reasonable doubt,' I didn't mean how rape victims usually behave after they've been raped, but how the facts seems to change from one instance to the other. That the facts changed, that Ardin's statement still says she was raped on the morning on the 14th of August when her [deleted] tweets promptly state otherwise and plain falsifies her claims, then that's 'reasonable doubt.' Since your friends are rape victim advocates, would rape victims laud their rapists and consequently throw parties in their honour the day after the alleged rape? I realise all rape victims deal with it in their own way, but that's a bit strong, isn't it?


I am strongly fighting the urge to allcaps. No, that is not a reason for doubt. Not at all. In fact, the desire to ignore the assault and act as if nothing happened is incredibly, depressingly common.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
Guest wrote:
The problem with this case, I think, is that the prosecution hasn't been straightforward in what he's being charged with. In Sweden, officially, he's not been charged with anything, and still has not been charged with anything. The charges you see or hear are by the London authorities who arrested Assange. In Sweden he's still being accused, but not charged with anything.

The only thing I could take from that article was the penal passage about rape. Then it pretty much presents a similar rhetoric like in the article I linked, if not more. The irony is not lost, believe me.

Anyway, what I meant by 'reasonable doubt,' I didn't mean how rape victims usually behave after they've been raped, but how the facts seems to change from one instance to the other. That the facts changed, that Ardin's statement still says she was raped on the morning on the 14th of August when her [deleted] tweets promptly state otherwise and plain falsifies her claims, then that's 'reasonable doubt.' Since your friends are rape victim advocates, would rape victims laud their rapists and consequently throw parties in their honour the day after the alleged rape? I realise all rape victims deal with it in their own way, but that's a bit strong, isn't it?


I am strongly fighting the urge to allcaps. No, that is not a reason for doubt. Not at all. In fact, the desire to ignore the assault and act as if nothing happened is incredibly, depressingly common.


Right, so it's plausible a victim would laud their rapist and throw a party in their honour? To pretend nothing happened, I mean. Say hypothetically you were a laywer and defending a rape victim and you find out the date they say they were raped, by their own tweets, that they had a lovely dinner and the day after the rape proclaimed their rapist was among '[one of] the world's coolest smartest people,' what would you do? What would you do if you [also] found out they threw a party in their rapist's honour? Purely hypothetically, how would you react? That it is a sham or that it was a defense mechanism? Not ruling out the possibility that they did get raped, but how trustworthy would you consider their accusations?

I'm not an expert at judicial matters, or an advocate, but wouldn't you consider that to be 'reasonable doubt'? Or am I unjust or ignorant in that respect? You can proceed with the allcaps if you think I deserve it.
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that you deserve it, Guest. It's just that it's a very disheartening mindset to encounter.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh language subtleties, oh how amusing you can be
Guest wrote:
penal passage about rape

I was skimming and this made me have to go back and re-read thoroughly
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
It's not that you deserve it, Guest. It's just that it's a very disheartening mindset to encounter.


Yes, well, aside from the moral posturing, would you consider that evidence to be damning or not? I'm speaking of merely the evidence that's been presented. Clearly you don't think it is particularly damning, that changing your mind for whatever reason, or painting a different picture, is a way of coping. Fair enough, but should it be admissable? Looking at all the evidence that speaks against what they say happened, should they really be able to admit that? If she'd said that in court and then changed it, that'd be called perjury. Still admissable? It's not really what I think morally about this, I'm all about the evidence.

That is a very fatuous thing to say. Disheartening mindset? Really? It's not that I don't believe the story of every rape victim, just this particular one I'm partial to. I question the proceedings of this case. Not every case. I dare to say anyone with a rational mind would, yourself included. Very well, I'll concede to you reasonable doubt. Evidently I don't know much about the mindset of rape victims.

I'll just end by saying that the case is far too convoluted and there's really no conclusive evidence for and against, thereby either way there is no case. How's that? That's fair, right?
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest the point he's making is that you do not actually have the details of the case or really anything other than what the news has gossiped about, and basically every news source and blog reporting on it seems to have some sort of blatant bias.

Edit: I get your ...irritability on the matter I guess, but frankly the sexual assault statistics of sweden do a lot more to make the country look bad for anyone who looks into it than this assange case.
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Shadic



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike, what is enough evidence supporting the claims to be false for you? Judging from your posts here, you immediately assumed he was guilty from the first accusal, and any remarks that the women have made you've chalked up to "Everybody reacts differently to rape."

Rape is a difficult thing to prove in court, as it is usually a "he says vs. she says" type of debate, usually without too much additional evidence. From what has been seen so far, I don't see how in a normal situation this would result in a guilty verdict.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference between assuming he's guilty and not being willing to just assume the charges are faked because the women 'didnt act like rape victims'
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Him



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Guest"][quote="Mizike"]
Guest wrote:
...No...that's not what I'm saying. And I think I take offense to you even thinking that. I'm saying these two ladies and the prosecution are making a mockery of our judicial system - with the side-effect that it's broadcasted all over the world.

In any other trial, evidence of the sort presented in this case would conclude it. Not this one, though. The prosecutor of the case being a noted feminist would question his/her motives. Not this one, though. Not even when Interpol got involved did it cease. It's laughable beyond laughable. It's insulting to other rape victims who did get raped. I don't believe for a second they were raped or were even close to getting raped. They're not sad, angry, disillusioned - none of those. Even if rape victims deal with it in their own way, I would imagine bragging about having sex with their rapist wouldn't be one of them.

Seeing as those original "Bragging" comments on twitter are linked I can honestly say, no that is not "damning". That idea has less to do with the actual comments and more to do with some views people hold on rape victims.

Quote:

It's ridiculous. Whether the case is politically motivated or the prosecution pulling some strings to keep it going, this is not a normal rape case. This is not how a normal rape case in Sweden is conducted. Also, yes I know I shouldn't care what people think, but don't tell me this won't have any repercussions for what people in the future will think of this country.

Yes, for the kind of people that think "feminism" is a dirty word and it's not rape unless someone fights back
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadic wrote:
Mizike, what is enough evidence supporting the claims to be false for you? Judging from your posts here, you immediately assumed he was guilty from the first accusal, and any remarks that the women have made you've chalked up to "Everybody reacts differently to rape."

Rape is a difficult thing to prove in court, as it is usually a "he says vs. she says" type of debate, usually without too much additional evidence. From what has been seen so far, I don't see how in a normal situation this would result in a guilty verdict.


You raise a fair question and one that I'm not sure I can answer. I tend, in cases of rape, to side with the accusers when there are more than one. Smoke and fire and all that.

As far as what is enough evidence to suggest that such accusation are false, I suppose that would be changing testimony given to police. But given the known psychological effects of rape, I don't think a couple of tweets shortly after the rape is said to have occurred constitutes solid evidence.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
Shadic wrote:
Mizike, what is enough evidence supporting the claims to be false for you? Judging from your posts here, you immediately assumed he was guilty from the first accusal, and any remarks that the women have made you've chalked up to "Everybody reacts differently to rape."

Rape is a difficult thing to prove in court, as it is usually a "he says vs. she says" type of debate, usually without too much additional evidence. From what has been seen so far, I don't see how in a normal situation this would result in a guilty verdict.


You raise a fair question and one that I'm not sure I can answer. I tend, in cases of rape, to side with the accusers when there are more than one. Smoke and fire and all that.

As far as what is enough evidence to suggest that such accusation are false, I suppose that would be changing testimony given to police. But given the known psychological effects of rape, I don't think a couple of tweets shortly after the rape is said to have occurred constitutes solid evidence.

I'm always highly skeptical of both sides whenever a 'celebrity rape' case occurs but I don't think the tweets only work in Assange's favor. I could see the prosecution arguing that the tweets were a coping mechanism try and convince herself that everything was 'ok'.
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dazedb42



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assange says Trophy photo taken of him. She must of taken it to aid the police investigation.
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julian Assange wrote:
"Sweden is the Saudi Arabia of feminism. I fell into a hornets' nest of revolutionary feminism."


I wonder if a girl kicked that hornets' nest.
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dazedb42



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't want it kicked, cover it up. Seriously though, Saudi Arabia of feminism? Wahabist feminists going around victimising misogynists?
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