Sinfest Forum Index Sinfest
welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Congresswoman shot
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16633
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
The Arizona Tragedy and the Politics of Blood Libel


um....blood libel?

the title made me think the shooter was affected by the fact that giffords is jewish....but apparently not.

what a twat.

and in other news:

talk radio hosts reject blame in shooting

good ol' rush got the last word:
Quote:
But while most radio hosts sought to stay clear of political partisanship, Rush Limbaugh said Monday afternoon on his show that seeking to connect the shooting with radio talk shows which are dominated by conservatives was part of a Democratic strategy.

It is our right and our duty to criticize the people who have put the fate of our country in peril, Mr. Limbaugh said.


surprise, surprise, surprise.

courage campaign is calling on darrell issa (who has vowed to spend all day, every day, investigating the obama administration as the new chair of the house investigations and oversight committee) to investigate the relationship between violent political discourse and violence....any bets on how high up _that_ will be on his agenda?
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Otoh



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 659
Location: goo.gl/tRvrs

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Congresswoman shot Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
holy shit

the local sheriff says five people have been killed and the Congresswoman and seven others are still alive, although in grave condition, as of this moment, so, grains of salt all around, but still, holy shit, a Congresswoman just got shot

and for extra bonus points, take a look at the fourth name down on this list


Jan 8th 2011 ricoche


Last edited by Otoh on Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4171
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying Tat is the second suspect?
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10424
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unfortunate that this became a debate about whether talk radio incited this person to violence, because that's a strawman of the highest order and allows this discussion to be killed without getting to the heart of the matter. Whether Loughner listened to any particular radio show is irrelevant. What is relevant is the level of political discourse at all levels. We should worry when we demonize one another for the sake of elections, and we should not be surprised when such vitriol begins to shape interactions beyond political discourse.

The argument of the radio show hosts is that they can't be held responsible for the actions of a mentally disturbed person - which is true, in a strict sense. We're all to blame, however, for the evolution of political discourse from being about differences of opinion to being about the fight of good against evil. Yes, Reaganites championed the idea that the Christian right had the lease on morality in America, but to leave it at that is to say that the left had no ability to influence the discussion. At some point we have to move beyond saying, "that event right there was not my fault," and say, "we have all played a role in the evolution of how politics is discussed, and as such we all share some level of culpability if that evolution leads to violence of any kind."

When the left bought into the simple idea that if I can get voters to fear or hate you then they will vote for me no matter what idiotic thing comes out of my mouth, whether they did so reluctantly, or in response to the right, they still did their part to advance the idea that those who disagree with us are dumb, or dangerous, or evil. This is not to say that I even agree that this was the position in which those on the left found themselves, that they didn't immediately recognize the expediency of these positions and sell their souls for simplicity on the spot. My point is that, regardless of how it came to be, both sides carry the blame together for how we now approach such picayune concepts as taxation on tire sales to out-of-state residents as the front line in the fight against evil itself. So we need to stop making this about the left versus the right, and start talking about the American people as a whole.

So, that's my deal. I think we all created Jared Loughner, political assassin, together, by dint of our incessant need to denigrate the other side. Acts of violence become inevitable as we become awash in violent rhetoric. Eventually the novelty of threatening innuendo wears off and it seems natural to threaten revolution, or civil war, or terrorism. Then we get into echo chambers - liberal and conservative bastions where all we hear is our own ideas repeated back to us - and these threats begin to sound rational, even likely. Naturally, most people don't ever act out in violence, but they propagate the mindset until it infects the next Jared Loughner. By then the direct influence is gone, it's simply the ripple effect of thousands of angry people on both sides splashing violent rhetoric against a fragile mind. We can all claim it wasn't our fault, exactly, and move on.

Ugh.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Ill do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16633
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can't argue with you on that.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is somewhat related to your little speech, Dogen.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9182

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everyone's playing the ruefully anticipated 'he's not one of US, he's one of YOU' game right now. Couple of groups claim he's a registered democrat, others claim he's a registered republican.

When, ffs, he could be a registered Timecube and it would matter just as much.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5123
Location: Iowa City

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Fallows wrote:
The Committee to Stop Gun Violence has prepared a compendium of sources of "violent" or "insurrectionist" political rhetoric in the past two and a half years. It is here. Let's stipulate that there could have been a tilt, conscious or unconscious, in selection of items for the list. Still, it is stunning in its totality. It is also hard to imagine coming up with a comparable list from "the other side."

One item (and photo) from a list that is many screenfuls long:

>>August 11, 2009--William Kostric is filmed openly carrying a handgun outside of President Obama's health care reform town hall meeting in New Hampshire. Kostric holds a sign that reads, "IT IS TIME TO WATER THE TREE OF LIBERTY!" a reference to the following Thomas Jefferson quote: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."<<

Please review this as a basic background document on considering the possibility that a tone of extremist rhetoric could be related to outbursts of political violence -- or, more constructively, whether one response to this tragedy should be deliberate cooling down of political talk.

_________________
Scire aliquid laus est, pudor est non discere velle
"It is laudable to know something, it is disgraceful to not want to learn"
~Seneca
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Forlorn Devil



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Location: In his own reality

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Dogen hit the nail on the head.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
It's unfortunate that this became a debate about whether talk radio incited this person to violence, because that's a strawman of the highest order and allows this discussion to be killed without getting to the heart of the matter. Whether Loughner listened to any particular radio show is irrelevant. What is relevant is the level of political discourse at all levels. We should worry when we demonize one another for the sake of elections, and we should not be surprised when such vitriol begins to shape interactions beyond political discourse.

The argument of the radio show hosts is that they can't be held responsible for the actions of a mentally disturbed person - which is true, in a strict sense. We're all to blame, however, for the evolution of political discourse from being about differences of opinion to being about the fight of good against evil. Yes, Reaganites championed the idea that the Christian right had the lease on morality in America, but to leave it at that is to say that the left had no ability to influence the discussion. At some point we have to move beyond saying, "that event right there was not my fault," and say, "we have all played a role in the evolution of how politics is discussed, and as such we all share some level of culpability if that evolution leads to violence of any kind."

When the left bought into the simple idea that if I can get voters to fear or hate you then they will vote for me no matter what idiotic thing comes out of my mouth, whether they did so reluctantly, or in response to the right, they still did their part to advance the idea that those who disagree with us are dumb, or dangerous, or evil. This is not to say that I even agree that this was the position in which those on the left found themselves, that they didn't immediately recognize the expediency of these positions and sell their souls for simplicity on the spot. My point is that, regardless of how it came to be, both sides carry the blame together for how we now approach such picayune concepts as taxation on tire sales to out-of-state residents as the front line in the fight against evil itself. So we need to stop making this about the left versus the right, and start talking about the American people as a whole.

So, that's my deal. I think we all created Jared Loughner, political assassin, together, by dint of our incessant need to denigrate the other side. Acts of violence become inevitable as we become awash in violent rhetoric. Eventually the novelty of threatening innuendo wears off and it seems natural to threaten revolution, or civil war, or terrorism. Then we get into echo chambers - liberal and conservative bastions where all we hear is our own ideas repeated back to us - and these threats begin to sound rational, even likely. Naturally, most people don't ever act out in violence, but they propagate the mindset until it infects the next Jared Loughner. By then the direct influence is gone, it's simply the ripple effect of thousands of angry people on both sides splashing violent rhetoric against a fragile mind. We can all claim it wasn't our fault, exactly, and move on.

Ugh.


Seriously though, acting like the blame doesn't fall on the republicans for creating this shit is silly. Speaking in broderisms about how both sides are to blame is some sort of holier-than-thou bullshit.


Bill Maher is fucking right. I don't like to admit it but he's right. One party has made violent, insane bullshit their platform. The bullshit isn't fringe-elements getting more attention, it's that one party has basically fucking embraced their fringe as their new vision.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a huge problem with the American liberals. They're just too damn decent.

I've seen it happen in the Something Awful thread about the assassination. The first x pages were filled with rage and "goddamn Tea Party", before the resident right-wingers showed up. They quickly realised that their cries of "GBS echo chamber" weren't doing much good, so they tried something different.

They started appealing to the liberals' decency, claiming that it was wrong to exploit such a tragedy and that we should wait for more details before attacking the right. And after a while, it started working. I swear I saw the words "national unity" multiple times.

Meanwhile. Not to mention Fox News asking an interviewee if Giffords provoked the assassin, Rush Limbaugh uses the situation to score some points against "The Left" and the Tea Party froths at the mouth.

Then the liberals started making speeches like Dogen made. And they're beautiful, they're decent, they gracefully land on the moral high ground. Problem is, by being so decent, they're letting the right - and especially the Tea Party and Palin and such - off easy. You're giving away the narrative.

Just watch. The right is probably almost done creating a narrative for their base to follow and pretty soon, they'll start preaching to the world.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10065
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Dogen wrote:
It's unfortunate that this became a debate about whether talk radio incited this person to violence, because that's a strawman of the highest order and allows this discussion to be killed without getting to the heart of the matter. Whether Loughner listened to any particular radio show is irrelevant. What is relevant is the level of political discourse at all levels. We should worry when we demonize one another for the sake of elections, and we should not be surprised when such vitriol begins to shape interactions beyond political discourse.

The argument of the radio show hosts is that they can't be held responsible for the actions of a mentally disturbed person - which is true, in a strict sense. We're all to blame, however, for the evolution of political discourse from being about differences of opinion to being about the fight of good against evil. Yes, Reaganites championed the idea that the Christian right had the lease on morality in America, but to leave it at that is to say that the left had no ability to influence the discussion. At some point we have to move beyond saying, "that event right there was not my fault," and say, "we have all played a role in the evolution of how politics is discussed, and as such we all share some level of culpability if that evolution leads to violence of any kind."

When the left bought into the simple idea that if I can get voters to fear or hate you then they will vote for me no matter what idiotic thing comes out of my mouth, whether they did so reluctantly, or in response to the right, they still did their part to advance the idea that those who disagree with us are dumb, or dangerous, or evil. This is not to say that I even agree that this was the position in which those on the left found themselves, that they didn't immediately recognize the expediency of these positions and sell their souls for simplicity on the spot. My point is that, regardless of how it came to be, both sides carry the blame together for how we now approach such picayune concepts as taxation on tire sales to out-of-state residents as the front line in the fight against evil itself. So we need to stop making this about the left versus the right, and start talking about the American people as a whole.

So, that's my deal. I think we all created Jared Loughner, political assassin, together, by dint of our incessant need to denigrate the other side. Acts of violence become inevitable as we become awash in violent rhetoric. Eventually the novelty of threatening innuendo wears off and it seems natural to threaten revolution, or civil war, or terrorism. Then we get into echo chambers - liberal and conservative bastions where all we hear is our own ideas repeated back to us - and these threats begin to sound rational, even likely. Naturally, most people don't ever act out in violence, but they propagate the mindset until it infects the next Jared Loughner. By then the direct influence is gone, it's simply the ripple effect of thousands of angry people on both sides splashing violent rhetoric against a fragile mind. We can all claim it wasn't our fault, exactly, and move on.

Ugh.


Seriously though, acting like the blame doesn't fall on the republicans for creating this shit is silly. Speaking in broderisms about how both sides are to blame is some sort of holier-than-thou bullshit.


Bill Maher is fucking right. I don't like to admit it but he's right. One party has made violent, insane bullshit their platform. The bullshit isn't fringe-elements getting more attention, it's that one party has basically fucking embraced their fringe as their new vision.

My new pet conspiracy theory is that No Child Left Behind was really implemented in order to produce a new batch of mentally stunted kids, adolescents, and young adults ready to be brainwashed by right-wing rhetoric.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com Now in book form: http://amzn.to/14E6OFy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Set



Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 505
Location: On a bed on a shoreline

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoa whoa whoa lets not bring the timecubes into this. we were fine just before this little incident. good day people.
_________________
Quote:
And so, the truth is held in front of veiled eyes. All people need is someone to reveal it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Keign



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 2073
Location: The Blue Nowhere

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

My new pet conspiracy theory is that No Child Left Behind was really implemented in order to produce a new batch of mentally stunted kids, adolescents, and young adults ready to be brainwashed by right-wing rhetoric.

By Jove, I think he's got it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Dogen wrote:
It's unfortunate that this became a debate about whether talk radio incited this person to violence, because that's a strawman of the highest order and allows this discussion to be killed without getting to the heart of the matter. Whether Loughner listened to any particular radio show is irrelevant. What is relevant is the level of political discourse at all levels. We should worry when we demonize one another for the sake of elections, and we should not be surprised when such vitriol begins to shape interactions beyond political discourse.

The argument of the radio show hosts is that they can't be held responsible for the actions of a mentally disturbed person - which is true, in a strict sense. We're all to blame, however, for the evolution of political discourse from being about differences of opinion to being about the fight of good against evil. Yes, Reaganites championed the idea that the Christian right had the lease on morality in America, but to leave it at that is to say that the left had no ability to influence the discussion. At some point we have to move beyond saying, "that event right there was not my fault," and say, "we have all played a role in the evolution of how politics is discussed, and as such we all share some level of culpability if that evolution leads to violence of any kind."

When the left bought into the simple idea that if I can get voters to fear or hate you then they will vote for me no matter what idiotic thing comes out of my mouth, whether they did so reluctantly, or in response to the right, they still did their part to advance the idea that those who disagree with us are dumb, or dangerous, or evil. This is not to say that I even agree that this was the position in which those on the left found themselves, that they didn't immediately recognize the expediency of these positions and sell their souls for simplicity on the spot. My point is that, regardless of how it came to be, both sides carry the blame together for how we now approach such picayune concepts as taxation on tire sales to out-of-state residents as the front line in the fight against evil itself. So we need to stop making this about the left versus the right, and start talking about the American people as a whole.

So, that's my deal. I think we all created Jared Loughner, political assassin, together, by dint of our incessant need to denigrate the other side. Acts of violence become inevitable as we become awash in violent rhetoric. Eventually the novelty of threatening innuendo wears off and it seems natural to threaten revolution, or civil war, or terrorism. Then we get into echo chambers - liberal and conservative bastions where all we hear is our own ideas repeated back to us - and these threats begin to sound rational, even likely. Naturally, most people don't ever act out in violence, but they propagate the mindset until it infects the next Jared Loughner. By then the direct influence is gone, it's simply the ripple effect of thousands of angry people on both sides splashing violent rhetoric against a fragile mind. We can all claim it wasn't our fault, exactly, and move on.

Ugh.


Seriously though, acting like the blame doesn't fall on the republicans for creating this shit is silly. Speaking in broderisms about how both sides are to blame is some sort of holier-than-thou bullshit.


Bill Maher is fucking right. I don't like to admit it but he's right. One party has made violent, insane bullshit their platform. The bullshit isn't fringe-elements getting more attention, it's that one party has basically fucking embraced their fringe as their new vision.


I think Dogen's post was beautiful, but on the whole I agree with Snorri. You can accept culpability, but there comes a point when you have to concede equal responsibility. If the right did more in the same vein the left is doing (or trying to do), endorse gay rights, gay marriage, public option, etc, there'd be a case. As it is now, that's just beating yourself up for the benefit of others.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 4 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group