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Steve Irwin's death: Tragic, but expected.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some Guy! wrote:
My only real comment after most if this is that the domestic and tamed animal risk comparisons are, in my opinion, moot. This ray was neither, it was wild, and wild animals are not predictable in the same way that domesticated or tamed ones are. Additionally, the numbers are very likely problematic. Millions of people are around dogs, horses, hell, even elephants every year. I doubt (though I lack any evidence) that the number of people that are around truly wild sting rays, as Irwin was, numbers over a thousand a year. It is entirely possible that, even though this is the third such death ever recorded in Australia, the percentages of this happening are even higher than being mauled to death by a domesticated dog. Alas, without any proper statistic, that argument too is moot. I digress.

Maybe. But stepping outside and getting in your car to work is still more dangerous.
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Tyr



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
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Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irwin was a committed and accomplished conservationist and environmentalist, openly recognising human overpopulation and its consequent urban sprawl as the biggest threat to our planet.

Instead of reducing himself to neutered, impotent environmentalist political debate - indeed, eschewing a political affiliation entirely - he made hundreds of thousands of dollars from being an Australian larrikin on camera, actually bought natural Australian land, and protected it from industry. How many of the celebrities people normally hero-worship ever do anything like that? If his fans were indeed idiots, he certainly put their money to better use than they ever would have.

Or radical feminist Germaine Greer.

He contributed to biological study, even discovering a new species. He was totally unapologetic for his viewpoints and refused to kowtow to political correctness over the way he ran his family. He helped to forge the closest thing to an internationally recognised Australian national culture that we'll ever see, subtly adding a conservationist, naturalist angle to boot. Off camera, this guy was not fucking around.

He was a smart, energetic, and happy man, committed to his purpose, and he had his priorities straight. That's good enough for me. I was very sorry to learn he was gone.

I'm sick and tired of the contrary idiots (nobody in this thread, really, I just mean in general) who consider themselves counterculture by bucking the emotional trend of every single news story, in this case by calling him a fraud, a gimmick, a flash in the pan. Irwin is one of those rare cases where a dead celebrity deserves their public accolade. Nothing less.
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing that gets me about this is that Steve wasn't in anyway actively provoking the sting ray. Near as they can tell it got anxious about being between steve and the camera man. Only 17 fatalities are documented as having occured from sting rays (a suprisingly large number if you ask me).

This just seems a total fluke. Not at all what I expected to happen. I figured he'd be croc meat or get bitten by something venomous that ended up killing him. This is just.... Well ridiculous.

It's a shame though. For all that he annoyed a large number of people he really was a great conservationist and unlike some he championed more than just the cute fuzzy animals. So, while I sometimes found his superlative laden speech on his shows to be a little tiresome and didn't go out of my way to watch his shows, I still view this as a loss that will be felt deeply by a great many people in years to come. Of course, I feel that way about nearly everyone but that doesn't make the sentiment less worthy of expression.
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Teh Digital Dragon



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyr wrote:
He was totally unapologetic for his viewpoints and refused to kowtow to political correctness over the way he ran his family

I'm curious, how did he run his family?

And again, I'm not saying Irwin's risk-taking caused his death, and even if it did I don't think that'd mean he "deserved" to die. But I do think he did what he did in the shittiest, most exploitive way possible, and that he was lucky to live long enough to be killed by a stingray with the attitude he took to more deadly animals.

Also, I wish I was David Attenborough. He so dreamy.
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dazedb42



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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lily



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyr wrote:
He was totally unapologetic for his viewpoints and refused to kowtow to political correctness over the way he ran his family.


if you're talking about the controversy regarding his stunt with his infant son, i don't think political correctness has anything to do with that. just good old-fashioned freaking out about a guy holding a baby while feeding a crocodile.

and 'ran' his family? yeesh.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: pokey Reply with quote

Marik wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Also who gave the reports? his camera crew? Guys he was in all likelihood close with to some degree. I have NO IDEA WHY THEY WOULD POSSIBLY CHANGE DETAILS OF THE STORY TO PAINT STEVE IN A BETTER LIGHT.


Stop, just stop.

Everything that happened to him was filmed, by people who want to catch things on film to show other people. Everything that happened to him was already shown to close associates.

I mentioned yesterday that I wasn't going to wrap points up (mitigated by having to run in and out all day) -- leading people to speculate that I was honestly suggesting that the feral toothpick is a more dangerous bedfellow than the stingray -- but if I had hung around long enough to cycle around the whole issue, it probably would have centered around Mouse's point that 'this is a freak accident that could have happened to anyone, but it only seems to have special significance because it happened to Steve Irwin.'

Steve did a lot of risky shit around dangerous animals. Lots of people assumed that this would get him killed, but it didn't. The circumstances of his death did not involve either a (1) dangerous animal or (2) foolhardy behavior, but because the death did involve 'an animal,' people are making that connection anyway and calling it expected.

This is the erroneous connection which has led people to say things like "It seems pretty clear he didn't care about his family enough to bother to try too hard to stay around for them." or "I don't say it was accidental, I say it was inevitable." or "His ego got him killed."

Your present conspiracy theory tangent is pulling a close fourth, especially considering that Steve wasn't involved in anything particularly risky that day. "Swimming in the shallows with stingrays" ranks well below the lightning-strike threshold for sudden danger. You can take your kids!


In light of the official reports everything you're saying is correct, HOWEVER, given my knowledge of the situation at the time of my posting and Steve's own past behaviour, I'd say my theory was hardly as rediculous as some others have suggested.

I look at it this way, if Steve had died as a result of the above Kimodo dragon incedent after having said "Let's follow them", there would be little to no debate that he was killed by his own foolhardiness. It is because his death was so improbable that it makes conspiracy and some of those other erronious assumptions seem so much more probable. I think you would be hard pressed to find a bizarre celebrity death that isn't riddled with controversy. For instance Jon jon, an expierenced pilot, dying in a plane crash or Sonny Bono, a life long skier, dyingin a skiing accident.

On a side note, one of the guys at work asked me just how unlikely it was for the stingray to kill him and I said "I'll put it to you this way: you're more likely to get killed by lightning." Then I went on to apparently scare the bejesus out of the poor guy by going off on a tangent about positive lightning and it striking from 25+ miles away and being as hotter than the sun etc.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Re: pokey Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
In light of the official reports everything you're saying is correct, HOWEVER, given my knowledge of the situation at the time of my posting and Steve's own past behaviour, I'd say my theory was hardly as rediculous as some others have suggested.

A) What has changed SINCE then?
B) Why is it that the crew couldn't still be maintaining a coverup using the logic and facts that were available previously?
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Neraren



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to stoke the flames any higher, but now it turns out he did not, in fact, pull the barb from his own chest before he died. So the "Stretching the truth to paint him in a better light" isn't COMPLETELY out of left field. Just sayin.
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dazedb42



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neraren wrote:
Not to stoke the flames any higher, but now it turns out he did not, in fact, pull the barb from his own chest before he died. So the "Stretching the truth to paint him in a better light" isn't COMPLETELY out of left field. Just sayin.


got a source?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: pokey Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
In light of the official reports everything you're saying is correct, HOWEVER, given my knowledge of the situation at the time of my posting and Steve's own past behaviour, I'd say my theory was hardly as rediculous as some others have suggested.

A) What has changed SINCE then?
B) Why is it that the crew couldn't still be maintaining a coverup using the logic and facts that were available previously?


A) not too much except an official release
B) They could be, but with it being officially said this was a freak accident, further investigation by authorities will be discontinued. Unless the video is leaked and shows the witness accounts to be false, there is nothing else we can really do is accept the authorities word as true and factual. Even if someone were to to come forward and say "Yeah there's a big cover up blah blah blah" I doubt that they would be readily believed, even with 'evidence' (though wthe hell they could possibly present I have no fucking clue).


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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All debate aside, this has really been mind fucking me since I heard about it. My thoughts are along these lines: How long did it take him to die? What were his last thoughts? Did it hurt? I hope to God he died quick enough not to feel it. That would be really shitty if he did feel it. Did he think of his Wife? his Children? His parents? Did he laugh at the irony or cry in sadness? I hope he didn't relize what hit him.

Then I start going tangental on death and start trying to envision all of the people who have died all over the world from the time he died until when I'm currently thinking. Then it's off into the kinda things that have kept me up nights on various accasions for almost 20 years now. Is there an afterlife? A god? What is the nature of exsistence? Is the human raced doomed for extinction? Are we living or just merely exsisting? And on and on and on. Actually there are reasons why I've particualry been fixated on death recently again(it waxes and wanes), and it's not Irwin's, his just brought it back to the forefront of my mind...I think I need to make a thread about my grandmother...
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Tyr



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I normally don't get worked up over celebrity deaths. I wasn't even particularly moved when Princess Diana died. I do know she also did charity work - draw your own conclusions.

lily wrote:
if you're talking about the controversy regarding his stunt with his infant son, i don't think political correctness has anything to do with that. just good old-fashioned freaking out about a guy holding a baby while feeding a crocodile.

Fair enough.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That source explains that he pulled the barb from his chest. I think he wanted the source that says that Steve didn't pull the barb from his chest.
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