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Yorick
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 11972
Location: A false vacation abdicating in Ohio City
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 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| zeezee wrote: | | uh, they're hot links, monkey |
I didn't find them all that attractive.
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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5084
Location: Iowa City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| bitflipper wrote: | | What about these events in Libya make them significantly different from our attacks upon Iraq (both Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom) and Afghanistan? Why should we expect the results to be significantly different, either? |
I'm glad that ShadowCell and Eagley Sam took this up wile I slept. In short: every single relevant detail is different. I have said it before in this thread, but a good place to start getting information about this is Juan Cole
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Mr_Moustache
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 9027
Location: The thing in itself that is Will
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Mizike wrote: |
The Libyan TNC did all the work.
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the recent advances mad upon Tripoli have little to do with the TNC. In fact, not even their own units take orders from them. It seems that once Gaddafi is gone, there be an... interesting turn of events, chaos, and a lot of untrained young men with AK-47's.
The TNC, with, you know, the suspicious death of their commander of the army, the resignation of the cabinet, and the subsequent failure to either investigate the matter or appoint a new cabinet, seem not up to the task, and their recent campaigns would have impossible without the NATO's air strikes completely annihilating any counter attack possibility loyalist forces have, and sapping morale.
A nice article states:
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It is rebels in the west – from the Nafusa mountains and Misrata – that have captured Zawiya, 30 miles west of the capital, Garyan, 40 miles south and Zlitan, 80 miles to the west. Their commanders and politicians will, if they storm the Libyan capital, demand a greater say in what is currently a Benghazi-centred administration. |
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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5084
Location: Iowa City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: |
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The rebels from the west and the Benghazi-based TNC are not mutually exclusive. there were members of the TNC who never revealed themselves publicly precisely because they were western Libyans who didn't want to be exposed.
It's still good that the western Libyans had an uprising to free Tripoli for exactly the reason the article mentions -- it's not east liberating west; it's Libya freeing itself.
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Scire aliquid laus est, pudor est non discere velle
"It is laudable to know something, it is disgraceful to not want to learn"
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6301
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Mizike wrote: | | The Libyan TNC did all the work. They even complained that they wanted NATO to be a bit more involved, but they were (wisely, I'd opine) rebuffed. |
That's not very accurate, really. Every inch the rebels gained was made possible by NATO. They also did quite a lot more than simply target armoured columns and enforce a No Fly Zone.
| ShadowCell wrote: | | So, now the war seems to be almost over. In Iraq, it was the US's responsibility to rebuild the country it wrecked, because it was the US that took down the old order. In Libya, it will be Libyans' responsibility to do that--because they're the ones who took down the old order. Other countries just saved them from getting wiped out and helped them along the way. |
I think a more urgent question is what role the NATO countries will play in the post-revolution days. I doubt they'll just throw up their hands and say 'welp, we're done here. Enjoy the country'.
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 4449
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: |
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well! maybe it's not all over yet
| MSNBC wrote: | TRIPOLI, Libya — Hours after rebel forces gained "full control" over Moammar Gadhafi's fortified Bab al-Aziziya compound in Libya's capital Tuesday, the besieged dictator told state TV that his withdrawal from the bastion was a "tactical move."
He also said the compound was leveled to the ground from 64 NATO airstrikes.
He vowed death or victory in his fight against NATO "aggression."
It was not clear from the remarks when Gadhafi abandoned the Bab al-Azaziya compound, which was overrun by rebel fighters Tuesday.
"We are resisting with all our strength... we will either win or become martyrs, God willing," Gadhafi said.
Gadhafi was speaking on a local Tripoli radio station and his talk was reported by Al-Orouba TV.
Gadhafi government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim told Al-Orouba TV in a live interview after Gadhafi's talk was aired that the regime can resist for months or years.
Ibrahim claimed that 6,500 volunteers had entered Tripoli "in the past six hours" and have spread throughout "all the streets of Tripoli." More tribesmen were on the way to battle rebels, he said.
He threatened to turn Libya into a "burning volcano and a fire under the feet of the invaders."
Ibrahim said forces left the Bab al-Aziziya compound because it "no longer served a military or strategic purpose."
He also said that Gadhafi forces captured four "high ranking'' Qataris and one United Arab Emirates national.
Also early Wednesday, Gadhafi's fighters were attacking the town of Ajelat, west of Tripoli, with missiles and tanks and had gained control of parts of the town, Dubai-based al-Arabiya television reported.
Also, dozens of missiles were fired on Tripoli, a witness told al-Arabiya.
"The Al-Sour road, which is not far from (Gadhafi compound) Bab al-Aziziya ... is being pounded by Grad missiles and mortars," a witness told the satellite channel by telephone.
The station also reported that pro-Gadhafi forces are heading from Bani Walid toward Tripoli, about 60 miles northeast, to attack rebels.
Gadhafi's compound, shown in news video as heavily damaged by NATO airstrikes but with some buildings still standing, had emerged as one of the last centers of government resistance before it was overrun by rebels. |
my money is on him being in Sirte, and since the missiles and planes are being launched again, i'm guessing he's decided to go balls-out and throw everything he's got at the rebels.
so this ain't over yet. |
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Martian Kyo
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 1380
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| MSNBC wrote: |
Gadhafi government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim told Al-Orouba TV in a live interview after Gadhafi's talk was aired that the regime can resist for months or years.
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They can resist for months or years that doesn't sound very confident. He isn't even saying that they can regain control, just resist.
It's like saying we can lose very slowly.
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Catel
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 321
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Poll: Where's Muammar ?, by Martin Handford.
1) Hiding underground, like a dwarf. Keep on digging, you coulda find gold !
2) He did a "Bunker '45": committed suicide and his body burned. Look for teeth somewhere.
3) He did a "Varennes": disguised, trying to join Sirte. Do not look through the window. And do not wear green, even if you love the colour so much that you covered every flag with it.
4) He left Libya. To Chavez's ambassad.
5) In your ass.
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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5084
Location: Iowa City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Surt has fallen. The (unconfirmed) word out of Libya this morning is that the Colonel is dead.
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Scire aliquid laus est, pudor est non discere velle
"It is laudable to know something, it is disgraceful to not want to learn"
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 8366
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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mouse
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 14855
Location: under the bed
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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nytimes has a pic of what really looks like him, really looking dead. also rumors that one of his sons is also dead, but a second is still whereabouts unknown.
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Sam the Eagle
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2276
Location: 192.168.0.1
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Saw some footage of Gadhafi's body. It's quite possible he was beaten to death.
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2133
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2379
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Guest wrote: |
What is with these people and shoes, seriously?
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Its a huge cultural insult to even show the bottoms of your shoes to someone if im remembering correctly. Something to do with constantly being on the ground, ergo beating someone with shoes is kind of like screaming FUCK YOU.....FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUU while pissing on their face. Assuming that someone isn't someone who is into verbal abuse while being pissed on that is.
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2133
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Guest wrote: |
What is with these people and shoes, seriously?
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Its a huge cultural insult to even show the bottoms of your shoes to someone if im remembering correctly. Something to do with constantly being on the ground, ergo beating someone with shoes is kind of like screaming FUCK YOU.....FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUU while pissing on their face. Assuming that someone isn't someone who is into verbal abuse while being pissed on that is. |
Of course, who's to say this didn't happen AS WELL. Or WHILE they were doing it. Double whammy right there.
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