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College presidents say "Pay for it yourself."
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: College presidents say "Pay for it yourself." Reply with quote

63 percent of college presidents think students should pay for education
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110516/ts_yblog_thelookout/college-presidents-think-students-should-bear-cost-of-education
By Liz Goodwin Mon May 16, 2:19 pm ET
Quote:
College presidents and the American public have very different ideas about who should pay for college and whether higher education is a good deal, a new Pew Research Center study finds.

Almost two-thirds of the presidents of public and private four-year and two-year colleges say that students should pay for their own education. Meanwhile, less than half of members of the general public agrees with that assessment, with a majority saying either the federal or state government, private donors, or a combination of those should pick up the largest share of a student's college tab.

Perhaps this reluctance to pay is due in part to a widespread belief that colleges are ripping people off. Nearly 60 percent of Americans say the U.S. higher education system is not providing students with a good value.

And 75 percent of Americans say college is financially out of reach for most people. Three-quarters of college presidents, on the other hand, say college is a good or excellent value, and 42 percent of them say college is affordable for most people.


Terry Hartle, chief lobbyist at the American Council on Education, tells the Lookout that there's a simple reason college presidents and the general public are so out of sync. "I think the reason that college presidents think college is more affordable than the general public is that college presidents are acutely aware of how much money is going into student aid each year," he says. Hartle also points out that 25 years ago, when college was much cheaper on average, 60 percent of Americans said higher education was unaffordable for most people.

It's true that the sticker price of college has nearly tripled since 1980, even after costs are adjusted for inflation. Advocates of higher education, like Hartle, argue that grants and financial aid have filled that gap--but economists have found that the average family is paying a higher percentage of its income to finance college than it did 30 years ago. Families in the lowest 20th percentile of income have found college more financially out of reach over the same period, suggesting that financial aid has not kept pace with ballooning costs.

Meanwhile, six in 10 college presidents say students are less prepared for college and study less than their counterparts had 10 years ago. Their pessimism is borne out by research. A comprehensive study finds college students only study 12 hours a week on average. And a 2008 study found that one-third of college students are enrolled in pricey remedial courses because they lack proficiency in basic math or reading.


Hartle says skepticism over the value of a college education are not new: A 1976 Newsweek cover asked "Who Needs College?" and Harvard economist Richard Freeman argued in "The Overeducated American" the same year that as more Americans racked up degrees their value would go down. (The opposite has proven true so far.)

College graduates enjoy a strong economic advantage over lesser educated Americans on average. The Pew researchers estimate that the average college graduate makes $650,000 more over his or her lifetime than a high school graduate. And even if they don't think college was the best deal, more than 85 percent of college grads surveyed say their education was a good investment for them personally.



So there seems to be a pretty large disparity here in opinions. After reading some of the stories linked in the original article I'm not too sure where I stand on this anymore.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Wed May 18, 2011 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They didn't give the same options to the college presidents as to the public at large. That's so stupid that it's nearly impossible to comment on the article in question.

The issue of who should pay for college, on the other hand, is one near and dear to my heart.
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Mikewee777



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would pay out of pocket if they actually taught you something valuable instead of forcing recitation monologues for you to sit through.
Teachers don't want questions, they just want you to add time to their presentation by adding blanks and allowing bad questions to be asked.
My little brother got denied a diploma not because of his perfect grades, but because he didn't bribe them to ignore his sketchy attendance rates.

Look at certification organization classes and then look at colleges offering the same certification. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Through the college: it takes a freaking year.
Through the certification organization: it takes one day to a week.
Through illegal diploma mills: less than one hour. [Doesn't count]

It could be worse, we could be letting our local clerics runs the classes.
[oh wait, religious colleges do exist!!!]
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikewee777 wrote:
I would pay out of pocket if they actually taught you something valuable instead of forcing recitation monologues for you to sit through.


This statement leads me to believe that you either didn't go to college, didn't go to a good college, or didn't pay attention in college.

Don't get me wrong, college isn't for everyone, but there are absolutely benefits to college for those suited to it.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck, I only went to a tech college and my experience was totally different from "forcing recitation monologues for you to sit through."
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
They didn't give the same options to the college presidents as to the public at large. That's so stupid that it's nearly impossible to comment on the article in question.

The issue of who should pay for college, on the other hand, is one near and dear to my heart.


it looks from the graph like they did offer the same options to everyone - but the general public volunteered (vol) the 'some combination' option.

interesting that college presidents didn't think of that one, as i think a lot of students do end up financing their education through a variety of things - grants, loans, and their own/parent's money.

i wish there were more explanation on why the presidents think people should pay for their own education (since they know better than anyone how much costs are going up). do they think that this would weed out the unprepared and the ones who are just going to kill 4 years before they have to get a job? there may be some value in that - but a lot of times, the students who would have the most difficulty paying for college themselves, like the ones who are the first in their families to go to college, may be the ones who work hardest at it, because they really see the difference it could make. the ones who go just because that's what you do, who spend their time partying - those ones are the ones whose parents are already paying for them.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikewee777 wrote:
I would pay out of pocket if they actually taught you something valuable instead of forcing recitation monologues for you to sit through.
Teachers don't want questions, they just want you to add time to their presentation by adding blanks and allowing bad questions to be asked.
My little brother got denied a diploma not because of his perfect grades, but because he didn't bribe them to ignore his sketchy attendance rates.

Look at certification organization classes and then look at colleges offering the same certification. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Through the college: it takes a freaking year.
Through the certification organization: it takes one day to a week.
Through illegal diploma mills: less than one hour. [Doesn't count]

It could be worse, we could be letting our local clerics runs the classes.
[oh wait, religious colleges do exist!!!]


Let me put something into perspective for you.

My roommate just got his geology degree from the U of O. In doing so he worked hard, and studied hard getting his B.S. in geology in 3 years. Impressing professors that had contacts in the mining industry. He spent about eight months unemployed looking for work and deciding if he wanted to go to grad school. Basically post college bumming around. When he decided he wanted to go to grad school he asked his professors for a letter of recommendation. Not only did he get that, they passed their impressions of him along to the people they knew in the mining industry. Now he has a job working for U.S. Gold, paying him about 70 grand a year as a starting wage to walk around northern nevada, taking rock samples, shooting rock core with an xray machine, mapping the area. They bought him a truck of his own, are paying for his cell phone bill and internet service, his meals, his lodging and 1 day of his travel time to and from eugene to elko nevada. His work schedule is 2 weeks on, 1 week off or close enough to it and that's only with a Bachelors.

People who claim college doesn't pay off likely spent most of their time fucking around as a mediocre student studying some discipline that has little to no real world application or didn't attend college at all. At least that's the impression I've received of everyone I've met in person who tried to pass that line of bullshit my way.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i wish there were more explanation on why the presidents think people should pay for their own education (since they know better than anyone how much costs are going up). do they think that this would weed out the unprepared and the ones who are just going to kill 4 years before they have to get a job? there may be some value in that - but a lot of times, the students who would have the most difficulty paying for college themselves, like the ones who are the first in their families to go to college, may be the ones who work hardest at it, because they really see the difference it could make. the ones who go just because that's what you do, who spend their time partying - those ones are the ones whose parents are already paying for them.

Mouse don't be silly, everybody knows people with less capital are inherently lazy slobs who would just waste their college life on booze and free internets. If they were hard workers, they wouldn't be poor and in need of financial assistance, would they?
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Mizike wrote:
They didn't give the same options to the college presidents as to the public at large. That's so stupid that it's nearly impossible to comment on the article in question.

The issue of who should pay for college, on the other hand, is one near and dear to my heart.


it looks from the graph like they did offer the same options to everyone - but the general public volunteered (vol) the 'some combination' option.

interesting that college presidents didn't think of that one, as i think a lot of students do end up financing their education through a variety of things - grants, loans, and their own/parent's money.


If you read the fine print, the presidents were given an online poll with only four options. I think their results are not that far off the general public's response (excepting that college president's rightly prefer state funding to federal funding) given that.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah - missed that, different modes also which could affect the results.

the distribution still interests me, given the rapid increase in college fees and the emphasis (around here, at least) on scholarships, grants and so on.

would also be interesting to see the ratio of public/private institutions - or maybe just 2 charts, one each for presidents of public and private institutions.
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DeD CHiKn



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
My roommate just got his geology degree from the U of O. In doing so he worked hard, and studied hard getting his B.S. in geology in 3 years. Impressing professors that had contacts in the mining industry. He spent about eight months unemployed looking for work and deciding if he wanted to go to grad school. Basically post college bumming around. When he decided he wanted to go to grad school he asked his professors for a letter of recommendation. Not only did he get that, they passed their impressions of him along to the people they knew in the mining industry. Now he has a job working for U.S. Gold, paying him about 70 grand a year as a starting wage to walk around northern nevada, taking rock samples, shooting rock core with an xray machine, mapping the area. They bought him a truck of his own, are paying for his cell phone bill and internet service, his meals, his lodging and 1 day of his travel time to and from eugene to elko nevada. His work schedule is 2 weeks on, 1 week off or close enough to it and that's only with a Bachelors.


My girlfriends younger sister just got a paid internship at some engineering firm making more money then my girlfriend and I combined. She's 20. My girlfriend has a master's degree in biomedical something something and a job relating to that.

It really is all about picking the right field.

My job is supposed to be paying for my college but thus far are fighting me tooth and nail on it.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
ah - missed that, different modes also which could affect the results.

the distribution still interests me, given the rapid increase in college fees and the emphasis (around here, at least) on scholarships, grants and so on.

would also be interesting to see the ratio of public/private institutions - or maybe just 2 charts, one each for presidents of public and private institutions.


I was kinda interested in seeing that same kind of breakdown of public vs. private myself.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
My girlfriends younger sister just got a paid internship at some engineering firm making more money then my girlfriend and I combined. She's 20. My girlfriend has a master's degree in biomedical something something and a job relating to that.

It really is all about picking the right field.

I was talking to my endocrinologist about grad school, and he was really into my plan to do research, said he thought it was cool and all that and I'm like, "Yeah, and then if I ever graduate I'll make a cool $60-80k a year with a decade of education," and he's like, "Yeah, my son got his bachelor's degree in chemical engineering two years ago and makes more than I do." I was like, "I've seen your car. You're doing just fine."

But yeah... pick the right field... should've thought of that before I did this four year degree thing!
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be more okay with my massive fucking debt load if they would let me handle it in a sane way. Have they ever changed the consolidation laws? I am not allowed to consolidate mine (3 or 4 lenders) which really dents my credit score.

I am really okay with kids paying for some of college - especially if they have to pay _something_ up front - it puts it into perspective when you have to do that. HOWEVER, it is so difficult to understand what the debt load is even if you didn't come from money (and then the parents pay). I certainly didn't expect... *adds...* over $400 in student loan payments a month.

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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, don't forget the intrinsic value of college - I don't care how much money I am going to make, but it fulfills an intellectual need. Also, here I pay double tuition, which most dutch people think is crazy. Standard tuition is 1700 euros. If i had to pay 50,000 dollars for a mediocre uni, I would probably skip it. Besides that, it pays off due to the fact that it develops research and writing skills.


I mean, college isn't just for getting a degree: for many young adults it is a crucial step towards finding a identity role to fulfill.
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