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bin Laden Dead! Symbolism and path from here
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woke up, read that Osama was killed. Went 'fuck yeah,' yawned, moved to local news.

It's worth a little bit of crowing over, but not a lot. We created Bin Laden in the 80s. We built his successors over the last decade. This 'mastermind', this 'arch-villian' stuff is Bush-era comic book bullshit PR. But he still deserved to die, and an operation to take him out is, well, it's something. I'll take it. So will the direct victims of his attacks. I'm not jubilant, but I don't begrudge anyone the high-fives and celebrations over a bad man getting iced.

Other than that, well, Pakistan's government is pretty terrible. That this succeeded with (apparently) absolutely no input from their government is pretty telling.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
And all the footage of people cheering and dancing in the streets just reminds me of the demonstrations in the middle east that occured not long after the incident that started all this.


In 2001 people were rejoicing at the murder of civilians via hijacked planes.

Last night, people were celebrating the death of a man that dedicated his life to killing anyone that didn't agree with his philosophy.

It's a rather superficial reminder because of the profound and important differences in what's being celebrated.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: doesn't our terror rainbow exist because of this guy? Reply with quote

If you still need a reason to celebrate, you can think of this news as one less threat for overstressed Americans to worry about.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From our perspective perhaps. From the perspective of people who get offed at weddings by our drone missiles it may be comeuppance. We ARE talking about people who have had our country's boot on their necks by proxy for years and years Sam. EVERY grievance they have isnt our fault but there are a lot of legitimate ones.

Its pretty inappropriate to celebrate killing..period, it would be one thing if it were the end of hostilities but it isnt. I don't deny the need or eventuality of bin laden's death...but well, either there is a value on human life or there isn't and either death is to be handled with solemnity or it isnt and this whole ordeal from beginning to this point says some ugly things about our national character.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
From our perspective perhaps. From the perspective of people who get offed at weddings by our drone missiles it may be comeuppance. We ARE talking about people who have had our country's boot on their necks by proxy for years and years Sam. EVERY grievance they have isnt our fault but there are a lot of legitimate ones.

Its pretty inappropriate to celebrate killing..period, it would be one thing if it were the end of hostilities but it isnt. I don't deny the need or eventuality of bin laden's death...but well, either there is a value on human life or there isn't and either death is to be handled with solemnity or it isnt and this whole ordeal from beginning to this point says some ugly things about our national character.


You don't see the end of hostilities as being brought closer by this event?

The people out in the streets partying aren't celebrating simply because of one man's death, they are celebrating because of a national catharsis brought about by the symbolism of the event, I.E. it has more meaning to people than a simple blood lust. They see it as a sign of good things to come after 10 years of uncertainty.

Wars were justified partly because of this man.

It certainly is a turning point in our history, if not the end of an era.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't see hostilities being brought closer to an end due to this event. The terrorist cell structure is specifically designed to prevent the death of one person from putting an end to the organization.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't most of the financial backing for those cells come from Osama?

You don't think cutting the head off this snake did anything?
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
From our perspective perhaps. From the perspective of people who get offed at weddings by our drone missiles it may be comeuppance.


What? Not only were none of the people celebrating the 9/11 attacks doing so because of our drone missile attacks, but perspective has little to do with the differences in the reason behind the celebration which really can't be ignored in trying to compare the celebrations.

Quote:
Its pretty inappropriate to celebrate killing..period, it would be one thing if it were the end of hostilities but it isnt. I don't deny the need or eventuality of bin laden's death...but well, either there is a value on human life or there isn't


That some people's deaths are ultimately a good thing that inspires celebration does not cause an automatic conflict with the notion that human life has value. There are plenty of ways to hold value on human life and handle only SOME deaths with solemnity. It's not an all or nothing proposition.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure it did something, but honestly I think it just put off the inevitable. I mean do you forsee people who are already plotting terrorist attacks going "oop, out of money guess its time to bag everything" or do you see them finding other sources of funds?

You don't forsee attempts at large scale retaliation?

One also wonders how much the operation will destabilize pakistan, they're already pissed off about how much we operate inside their borders.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
That some people's deaths are ultimately a good thing that inspires celebration does not cause an automatic conflict with the notion that human life has value. There are plenty of ways to hold value on human life and handle only SOME deaths with solemnity. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

That life has value is an all or nothing proposition. If the statement is true then bin Laden's life had value. "Some life has value," would not be all or nothing, but then we find ourselves in the dark, dirty water of deciding who has worth and who doesn't - the sort of thing conservatives like to claim Muslims do with their sword verses.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I'm sure it did something, but honestly I think it just put off the inevitable. I mean do you forsee people who are already plotting terrorist attacks going "oop, out of money guess its time to bag everything" or do you see them finding other sources of funds?

You don't forsee attempts at large scale retaliation?


Yea, those darn terrorist entrepreneurs and their startups, they'll make the money needed for retaliation in no time!!!

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
One also wonders how much the operation will destabilize pakistan, they're already pissed off about how much we operate inside their borders.


Oh come on, Pakistan's government gave permission, it was pretty much a one time deal.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Collusion with the US government may be viewed as very negative by the people of Pakistan. It was floated on the news this morning that the "we did it in secret" story was intended to provide a smokescreen for the Pakistani government. It's fairly certain US helicopters couldn't have penetrated that far into Pakistani airspace without them knowing, and thus some deal must have been reached. So sayeth the news, anyway.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:

That some people's deaths are ultimately a good thing that inspires celebration does not cause an automatic conflict with the notion that human life has value. There are plenty of ways to hold value on human life and handle only SOME deaths with solemnity. It's not an all or nothing proposition.


You're welcome to feel that way, but I disagree.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:

That life has value is an all or nothing proposition. If the statement is true then bin Laden's life had value. "Some life has value," would not be all or nothing, but then we find ourselves in the dark, dirty water of deciding who has worth and who doesn't - the sort of thing conservatives like to claim Muslims do with their sword verses.


I am not proposing as to whether or not all life has value, or whether we get to exclude some people's lives from having value. I'm saying you can hold the view that all people's lives have value without having to treat all of their deaths with solemnity.

For instance, I think all people's lives have value, and I'm going to treat Osama's death with a "Hooray! Fuck you!" ó the two don't have to be in conflict, because valuing life does not necessitate a universal, solemn response to every death.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
It's fairly certain US helicopters couldn't have penetrated that far into Pakistani airspace without them knowing, and thus some deal must have been reached.


It actually would have been profoundly easy for the US to spoof pakistani transponder codes.
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