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bin Laden Dead! Symbolism and path from here
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trustedfaith



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, a senior Pakistani intelligence official said members of Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, were on site in Abbottabad during the operation. There was no way to immediately resolve the apparent discrepancy.


My guess is that we're trying to make it seem like it was more us than them to try and stop retaliatory attacks on Pakistan's government. We still have to play nice with them to get the other Al Queda folks hiding in the country.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/02/bin.laden.raid/index.html?hpt=T1
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i guess i feel it's a bit of an anticlimax. he's had 10 years to set up structures that will allow al qaeda to continue to have income, to encourage spin-off groups, to pretty much harden the whole islamic terrorist thing. if he had been killed in tora bora, within months of 9/11, that might have been a real blow to islamic terrorism. but he's been pretty much just a figurehead for years now, a sort of icon for jihadis to worship at - his death just makes him a martyr, they can continue on as before.

and it's hard to believe, after this, that pakistan can honestly be relied on for any help against any al qaeda that may be in the country. he sets up a million-dollar compound with elaborate security, in a town with a military college and a raft of retired military living there, at a time when the country was a military dictatorship run by a guy who has had a number of assassination plots against him - and the pakistanis don't make any inquiries into who might be living there? it seems one of the things that convinced the americans it was bin laden's compound was that it didn't have so much as a telephone line - "no electron got near him", someone said. you would think the pakistanis would have noticed that as well - and yet he lived there for 5 years or more, until our independent investigations tracked his courier there. yeah, pakistan's got some explaining to do.

i guess it's a bit of closure, and i'm glad it happened on obama's watch (although the repugs are already hastening to prove it was really all the groundwork bush laid that made it possible). hopefully it means we will stop making drone attacks in pakistan, but i don't know that it will change much else. i guess we'll find out how well al qaeda has metastasized by what sort of retaliation they manage to achieve.
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pakistan certainly knew about the operation, since one of their diplomats was churlishly complaining about a lack of thanks from Obama. But then, Pakistan can pretty much go fuck itself.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i guess we'll find out how well al qaeda has metastasized by what sort of retaliation they manage to achieve.


This just made me irrationally grateful to live in bumfuck nowhere and also not have a reason to fly anytime soon.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I'm a bit annoyed at the fact that the mission was aimed at killing and not capturing Osama, I can't say I'll miss him.

But the best thing about this are the jokes.


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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether or not they should have, this is a cathartic moment for a generation that had to grow up fearing this guy.
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Canopus



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A pretty good gold sticker on Obama's track record.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Whether or not they should have, this is a cathartic moment for a generation that had to grow up fearing this guy.

hey now, don't go overboard with that last bit.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Whether or not they should have, this is a cathartic moment for a generation that had to grow up fearing this guy.

hey now, don't go overboard with that last bit.


Our country willingly signed away freedoms for this...i'm not sure the sentiment is all that far off as concerns the u.s.
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Canopus



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything, that was an understatement. Shadow isn't one of those excessive patriots.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but did you guys actually fear Osama? Or even the threat of terrorism itself? I get what he's trying to say, but the choice of using the word "fear" just seems so... odd.
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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They did ask him to surrender (not sure how loudly they said that over the sound of their bullets flying at him). For what it's worth. Wink
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely, we feared bin Laden and terrorism. We quietly accepted these new intrusions on our freedoms because of that fear. We cheered for the wars we thought were aimed against him (and then soured on them when it became clear that they actually weren't). Bin Laden was the guy they trotted out when they wanted to remind us that dem durn terrists are still out there and that's why we should vote Republican. We may have gone on with life anyway, but fear of terrorism has been driving our domestic and foreign policy for a decade.

None of that's going to change because of this, because in operational terms bin Laden just wasn't that important anymore, and the freedoms we've given up to the government are hard to get back. But a generation did unquestionably grow up with this guy as its bogeyman, and now he's fish food. Of course there are celebrations.
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Canopus



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fear of Bin Laden manifested as mass paranoid Islamophobia, and how misdirected that fear was. No Muslim will tell you Americans didn't fear Osama and terrorism* in general.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Our" deaths from the 9/11 attacks: 2996
"Our" deaths from the military operations that came after: 7211

Cost of rebuilding the world trade center: Roughly 10 billion
Cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq: Roughly 1.283 Trillion plus.

For a little perspective as to why I feel a bit mixed about the whole thing. Just feels to me that if we value life so much, wasting more than twice as many lives in an effort for retribution that really doesn't make the situation much better is...stupid.
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