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The secret CIA prisons are real, it's Official!ô
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
I'm a firm believer in responsibility.

If I was in that situation, and knew that, say, I'd spend ten years in jail for torturing someone (which may be light, but just for the sake of argument I'll leave it as this) but I could save millions of people by torturing that person, I'd spend the ten years in prison and think it was a fair exchange.

Sometimes one must make the decision to do something that will result in grave consequences. Sometimes the results make those grave consequences worth paying.

So you'd support it as long as it was done illegally?
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. I understand that there may be extreme circumstances where Torture is used. I think, though, that there should be repercussions even in those cases.

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing. It doesn't have to be absolutely no torture in any circumstance, or allow torture without consequence.
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
Ahh, so it would be unauthorized torture. Ok. I understand what you are saying now. Many thanks for the clarification.


So, to add what I just said above to Dogen, I don't know that this is entirely accurate. It would be more along the lines of authorized torture, but with repercussions attached to that torture.

My hope would be that it would actually be used as a very last resort with the knowledge that the cost is going to be severe.

So it still would not be unauthorized or illegal, I don't think.
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Mystic Llama Herder



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Mizike wrote:
Ahh, so it would be unauthorized torture. Ok. I understand what you are saying now. Many thanks for the clarification.


So, to add what I just said above to Dogen, I don't know that this is entirely accurate. It would be more along the lines of authorized torture, but with repercussions attached to that torture.

My hope would be that it would actually be used as a very last resort with the knowledge that the cost is going to be severe.

So it still would not be unauthorized or illegal, I don't think.


If it's not illegal, why are getting jail time for it?
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know. Is it possible to authorize something and still attach consequences to it? That's what I'd like to see, I guess.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
I don't know. Is it possible to authorize something and still attach consequences to it? That's what I'd like to see, I guess.

So what you want is for the CIA chief to say "Okay, you can torture that prisoner, but you'll be fired and jailed for doing it"?
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Mystic Llama Herder



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
I don't know. Is it possible to authorize something and still attach consequences to it? That's what I'd like to see, I guess.

So what you want is for the CIA chief to say "Okay, you can torture that prisoner, but you'll be fired and jailed for doing it"?


I'd love to be that guy's employee.
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
I don't know. Is it possible to authorize something and still attach consequences to it? That's what I'd like to see, I guess.

So what you want is for the CIA chief to say "Okay, you can torture that prisoner, but you'll be fired and jailed for doing it"?


No, it'd be more like: "Okay, you can torture that prisoner, but I'll be jailed for doing it."
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
No, it'd be more like: "Okay, you can torture that prisoner, but I'll be jailed for doing it."

*one week and fifteen firings later* We lose more Chiefs that way.
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Inept Villain



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: A place of unending, horrifying mediocrity.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing that just transpired made any sense to me at all.

So torture is inhumane, invariably excessive, and a practice of downright no-good nastiness. Yet, when it comes to our own interests as a country, it's permissible as long as it suits our dire need? I don't follow. Shouldn't "justice for all" prevail over what is convenient?

I have to get rid of this, or it'll build up in my head and poison me like some kind of brain goblin. It seems appropriate, although I have no idea what it has to do with brutally interrogating terrorists:

(WARNING: Explicit Content)
http://www.funfreepages.com/flash/america_fuck_yeah.php
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inept Villain wrote:
So torture is inhumane, invariably excessive, and a practice of downright no-good nastiness. Yet, when it comes to our own interests as a country, it's permissible as long as it suits our dire need? I don't follow. Shouldn't "justice for all" prevail over what is convenient


I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn't making torture "convenient".
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kame



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt Lauer grows a pair.

I especially love how Bush, not once, either confirmed or denied anything to do with torture, but maintained that what they did was 'legal'. If these are the same people who told him all of his signing statements were constitutional, then I'm worried.
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Inept Villain



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: A place of unending, horrifying mediocrity.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Inept Villain wrote:
So torture is inhumane, invariably excessive, and a practice of downright no-good nastiness. Yet, when it comes to our own interests as a country, it's permissible as long as it suits our dire need? I don't follow. Shouldn't "justice for all" prevail over what is convenient


I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn't making torture "convenient".

Regardless, it's still wrong to torture someone. What would the trifling consequence of jail time do to curb the use of the heinous practice anyway? Surely there are a hundred and one ways a crafty official could side-step it? Being vague about when and if they actually tortured the prisoner, tying up the necessary paperwork with red tape, etc.
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inept Villain wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Inept Villain wrote:
So torture is inhumane, invariably excessive, and a practice of downright no-good nastiness. Yet, when it comes to our own interests as a country, it's permissible as long as it suits our dire need? I don't follow. Shouldn't "justice for all" prevail over what is convenient


I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn't making torture "convenient".

Regardless, it's still wrong to torture someone. What would the trifling consequence of jail time do to curb the use of the heinous practice anyway? Surely there are a hundred and one ways a crafty official could side-step it? Being vague about when and if they actually tortured the prisoner, tying up the necessary paperwork with red tape, etc.


Wouldn't you say it's wrong to kill people? Yet, there are times when killing someone is justified.

I agree that torture is wrong. I also acknowledge that there are rarely ever absolutes in our world and that there may be a situation where torture is justified.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Mizike, I'm talking about those doomsday circumstances sometimes argued, like there's a nuke set to go off in a US city in 12 hours and we have the person who set the device.

It's a very extreme situation where I'd...condone is too strong a word...maybe reluctantly support? *shrug*


so, let's see. you've got a guy with the cojones to set up a nuclear device in the u.s. somehow, with only 12 hours to do and no idea where the device is, we manage to capture they one guy that we know, knows where it is.

and this guy knows that he only has to endure whatever we throw at him for 12 hours. he also knows that he can throw out phony information which will stop the torture, at least until that information can be checked.

all he has to do is endure, and he will go down in history.

and you think there is a way to torture him to get the information?

in any event, it's a bogus scenario. the situation where torture is apparently being used is one in which we _think_ something may be going to happen, we _think_ we've got someone who knows what will happen, or who is involved, and we want to get that information.

from what was in the article dogen presented, the fbi, using standard interrogation techniques, got answers. the cia, using "harsher" methods, did not - in part because the guy did not, in fact, know anything.

so: torture cannot produce information that the informant doesn't have. and the relationship you end up with, between the tortured and the torturer, is such that the torturer will never believe the torturees protestations that he knows nothing. with standard interogation techniques, the interogator can get the respect of the person he is questioning, and can get to the point that he can judge whether the guy knows anything or not. he can judge whether or not there is further information.

someone being tortured is likely to give you false information, just to stop the pain. and then you have to take time and resources to find out that the information is, in fact, false - time and resources that could be better used.

no, any number of people with a great deal of experience, from law enforcement officials to military figures (including those who have actually been tortured) say that torture is at best ineffective, and at worse counterproductive. the administration has been spending too much time reading comic books and watching 24 to accept the reality of the situation - that no matter how satisfying it may seem to cause your enemies real physical pain, you aren't getting anything usable out of the exercise.
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