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No shirt, No shoes, Got kids: NO SERVICE!
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference being we already restrict which businesses children of a certain age can go. Slippery slope arguments kind of fail here. I'll be pretty happy when people realize that squirting out a kid here or there is only REALLY special for them and their family and expecting the rest of the world to treat them as some sort of special treasure when there are 7billionish people on the planet is unrealistic.
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andrew



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
What about "no men" or "no women"?
Are you sure you want to allow this?

We're already there, and yes, I'm comfortable with it. I'd even be comfortable with "no asians" or similar. I'm confident market forces would take care of any businesses that got stupid with it, particularly because of the aforementioned population & information dynamics.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
Michael wrote:
What about "no men" or "no women"?
Are you sure you want to allow this?

We're already there, and yes, I'm comfortable with it. I'd even be comfortable with "no asians" or similar. I'm confident market forces would take care of any businesses that got stupid with it, particularly because of the aforementioned population & information dynamics.

Careful, that could start an asian turf war (look at the sign on the wall)
Also the whole "no asians" thing would definitely... um yeah...
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sporko



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
Michael wrote:
What about "no men" or "no women"?
Are you sure you want to allow this?

We're already there, and yes, I'm comfortable with it. I'd even be comfortable with "no asians" or similar. I'm confident market forces would take care of any businesses that got stupid with it, particularly because of the aforementioned population & information dynamics.


businesses--at least in the US--can't get too crazy with no men/no women/no asians (hi civil rights act of 1964). HOWEVER children are not real people (at least not legally), and so aren't covered. i personally don't have a problem with children being banned from certain establishments; there are some places that aren't just appropriate for a five-year-old.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know, but i suspect most of the men/women only places are really tailored to some specific desire in that demographic - women-only gyms, for example, for women who want to focus on exercising without worrying how they might appear to males, or barbershops/salons that want to focus on just male or female styling - things that are filling a reasonable demand. but as andrew points out - if they aren't appealing to a sufficiently large customer base, they will go out of business, so you'd want to be sure you had enough potential customers in a limited pool before you did that. (i think a lot of why civil rights succeeded was because, once they calmed down about having "those other people" in their stores, businessmen realized they had increased their pool of potential customers.)

but it certainly sounds like there is a good customer base to support places that put restrictions on children.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: At least I was a quiet kid who explored the world mindlessly Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
A comment from Bree O'Neill on this article:
Quote:
I really don't see what the issue is here. Let me boil it down for those that are confused, defensive, or just plan crazy:

1) No one is seriously suggesting that children aren't a part of the world. Neither is anyone trying to make it so they can't leave your homes and lead normal, healthy lives.

2) Children will be children, and while everyone has had bad experiences with the unruly children of lax parents, any rational adult will also admit that CHILDREN ARE NOT ADULTS. Stay with me on this. We don't expect children to behave like adults. That's crazy. We also know that you can't reason with the very young, so sometimes they're going to act out and there is only so much their parents can do.

3) That being said, here's the bottom line: There are some places and times where children are NOT WELCOME. Some of these places are common sense: adult movies, sex toy shops, and bars. These are not venues with an atmosphere that most sane parents would want their kids exposed to. Let's take that logic a step further and try this one out: did you know that there are places that cater specifically to children? That seems like the most natural thing in the world, doesn't it? Restaurants, movies, and amusement parks that not only welcome children, but are made SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM. Now, on the other side of the coin, is it so weird to think that places like that should exist for ADULTS?

4) No one wants to ban your kids from Chucky Cheese or McDonalds. Chili's, Applebee's, and a host of others are more than happy to cater to the whole family. Truth is though, sometimes people want to go somewhere nice and not have to deal with kids...their own included. Why should it be odd then that the 5-star, black-tie-required place might be geared towards only adults? We don't want to tell you that you can't eat where you want or see a particular movie, or fly whenever or however you wish. We're not banning
you or your kids from all places, just a few or at certain times. Times
when we are willing to go out of our way and even pay more for a little
peace. We're not cutting you out of Sunday mornings at Friendly's...but
maybe movies after 10pm, when your little kids are probably in bed (or
should be) anyways.

5) Parents are not second-class citizens. Having kids is hard. Most of us, myself included, who do not have or maybe even want children of our own haven't been living in a bubble. We have siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews. Our friends have had children. We see you struggle each and every day to balance your kids, your jobs and your relationship. It isn't our intention to make things harder for you.

6) And lastly, it seems to me that there is a lot of people crying "selfish" and "entitlement" and that makes me think there is one last thing we need to clear up: We make as many accommodations for you as we can. We pick up the shifts at work when you're on maternity leave or junior is sick. We pay school taxes so your kids can get an education. Even without children, we have friends and family that we love. We have lives and obligations outside of our jobs. We are, as much as you, as much as your children, a part of this world. We are not asking for any special treatment. All we want is to have our wants and needs met, same as yours.

Now, can we all just take a deep breath and look at what one another is saying without immediately becoming defensive and lashing out?


......

We're comfortable with all sorts of arbitrary discriminatory rules in business.

* No shoes, no shirt, no service.
* No smoking.
* No pets.
* Dress codes.
* Uneven handicap accessibility.

This is simply more of the same. Businesses should be and are allowed to limit customers & behaviors in order to provide a certain experience. The expansion isn't unidirectional, either. Some theaters, for example, offer explicitly "kid-friendly" showings of movies—some theaters even do sing-alongs of Disney musicals.

I really, really want to see this trend continue. I want to see nice restaurants that have a separate, on-site child dining area. I want to see bars with zany dress codes, or bars that ban college students. And I really, really want to see more businesses that do not allow children under a certain age inside.


There's a huge difference between not allowing your kids to go to a bar, and censoring the material they are allowed to see.

I wouldn't want them to live in an illusion.

I'd prefer that they see the world as it really is.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: A cold logic. Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:

The more you think about it, the more you realize it's just a logical result of people becoming more educated consumers and knowing exactly what they want.

I think it's more a logical result of the pool of available consumers and potential revenue for any given business expanding enormously as population centers become increasingly crowded and relocation/transit becomes cheaper & easier. Information plays its part, but even perfect information can't close the gap on missed revenue that specialized businesses used to face regularly.


Violence is a logical result every time the population surges.
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know you guys, next you'll be saying I can't take my kids to the titty bar. And then how am I going to pay the rent?
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
I don't know you guys, next you'll be saying I can't take my kids to the titty bar. And then how am I going to pay the rent?


I'll have you know that Hooters is a family restaurant.
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They certainly have the 'facilities' to feed kids of all ages.
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Martian Kyo



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say this is just laziness on a few levels.

Laziness of parents to control their kids...also known as bad parenting

Laziness on part of companies for real customer care. They don't want to handle the problem case by case, instead of communicating and handling each case of a screaming child they just ban children. Solving things with general policies never works out well.

Maybe the percentage of annoying children is not that high maybe only 30% of children annoy other people, but we remember that 30% more vividly. You never remember a baby that slept through the entire flight (probably cause you didn't even noticed the kid).

Again I say this is an example of bad parenting and bad customer care.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't be thick. Screaming kids don't equate to bad parents. All children have tantrums, even the children of the best parents in the world. That's just what kids do as they try to learn to deal with the world around them. Which is why it's okay to ban them from places that want to maintain a particular atmosphere: you can't control whether they go off at dinner, no matter how good a parent you are. I've got two little brothers who are a great deal younger than me, and you could plan as hard as you liked to keep them happy - favorite outfit, favorite toy, favorite snack - and sometimes it still went sideways. Being a good parent doesn't mean your kid never cries, it means you reinforce proper behaviors by responding appropriately when they do. That's totally unrelated to whether you're in a fancy restaurant, a grocery store, or your own child beating gymnasium in the basement.
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
Michael wrote:
What about "no men" or "no women"?
Are you sure you want to allow this?

We're already there, and yes, I'm comfortable with it. I'd even be comfortable with "no asians" or similar. I'm confident market forces would take care of any businesses that got stupid with it, particularly because of the aforementioned population & information dynamics.


Like market forces saved our economy? Oh wait... They didn't. Yes a free market can do some surprising things, but we're really bad at predicting specific outcomes and not all of them are "Good" in the sense of being in our national self interest.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what about the good kids that do what they are told?
Who represents them in this situation?
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and yes I brought up market corrections first, but that was on a much lower level (Kids not being allowed instead of wholesale ethnic/gender discrimination). I'm still of two minds about the kid thing and I don't find it as disturbing as the things you brought up. Interesting how that re-framing affected my feelings though.
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