welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Occupy Wall Street Thread
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4191
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in what is essentially a two-party, or at least two bloc country myself. And anyway the point is this, you'll have to be a bit more far sighted than just the next election. As I said any new formation will have to take babysteps at this point. The main point is this though, shifting the democrats to the left has not worked before. There is no reason to believe it will work now. So what then? The dynamic with the gop and their shift to the right is fundamentally different. It is a campaign backed by moneyed interests for one. In fact it is more akin to the dems shift to the right. Again corporate interests. Building something on the left can not work by the same tools.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6109
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've had this conversation before, Him, so if the idea that a third party is not going to succeed in United States electoral politics as they are currently configured won't sink in, you're always going to look at US politics and have no idea why a great red hope doesn't emerge from the briny depths of the disenchanted left and lead us all to socialist utopia.

But, uh, yeah, that's not gonna happen.

'sides which, if Occupy wants to last, the last thing it should do is try to create a political party of its own. It's had enough trouble trying to survive riot police and one party trying to undermine it, but if it goes from being a potential ally of the Democrats to a threat by forming its own party, it will not last long enough to see the next election anyway.

On the other hand, if Occupy does try to form its own party, you know who would help it get off the ground as much as possible? Republicans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Falkonn



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 307
Location: Beneath the pile of babies~

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your taking the realistic viewpoint here Shadowcell, but I honestly hope that OWS does decide to form their own party and run their own candidates. I read an article yesterday that was linked to me through fb about how possible third parties have been absorbed by the democrats without moving their politics in the long term in any direction whatsoever (I can go dig through my fb and find it I suppose, will do that in a moment). It uses the civil rights movement most notably, but also a few others that my sleep deprived brain aren't remembering correctly atm (Munchkin up in the middle of the night a lot since we are at grandma's house and not at home). While I don't think its realistic that OWS candidates would get elected in huge numbers I think it would be great for us if they were. I know that I would vote for them if I liked the people that put their names into the hat. Going to look for that article now, brb w/ an edit...

Edit: Nm, I'm confusing my dirty liberal fb page with dirty liberal Him posts apparently. =p
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4191
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
We've had this conversation before, Him, so if the idea that a third party is not going to succeed in United States electoral politics as they are currently configured won't sink in, you're always going to look at US politics and have no idea why a great red hope doesn't emerge from the briny depths of the disenchanted left and lead us all to socialist utopia.

But, uh, yeah, that's not gonna happen.

'sides which, if Occupy wants to last, the last thing it should do is try to create a political party of its own. It's had enough trouble trying to survive riot police and one party trying to undermine it, but if it goes from being a potential ally of the Democrats to a threat by forming its own party, it will not last long enough to see the next election anyway.

On the other hand, if Occupy does try to form its own party, you know who would help it get off the ground as much as possible? Republicans.
that would be suggesting that the Democrats are an ally now. Which they are not. And you need to get your head out of that supposed lesser evil, two-party logic. Every challenge against the Dems is not some GOP conspiracy. Further more I think, rather then just focusing electorally, the strategy for the long run must be building a social activist base. Breaking with the Democrat's electorally is just out of necessity.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6109
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be great if the left wing was able to get candidates elected outside the confines of the Democratic party. But, uh, it ain't gonna happen. And since I'd actually like to see things like student loan forgiveness and a fairer tax system and greater economic prosperity come into being, I think I'll stick with the party that actually exists and can be made to haltingly stagger towards those goals eventually, rather than chase the white whale of a third party that will never get elected.

Every challenge to the Dems is not a GOP conspiracy--but the GOP is the only one who benefits. And seeing as how the GOP is the party of "personhood at fertilization" and "no unions ever for all time" and "pay back your student loans while you're still in school," I'm sure you'll forgive me for not wanting to take chances on some third-party boondoggle.

Like I've said, we've had this conversation before. You're not "thinking outside the box" by constantly proposing that some great red hope can arise and save us all from the horrors of non-socialism. You're just fundamentally failing to grasp how anything is ever achieved in the US political system (or, for that matter, any other political system). So until you do, there's really no point in talking to you about US politics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4191
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double post. My cellphone is pretty bad for foruming.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray


Last edited by Him on Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4191
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again the article I linked a number of movements and parties that achieved quite alot, that is until they got absorbed by the democratic party. I think the Occupy movement itself is proof of that even. I mean just look at the antiwar movement. The wars are still going on but the movement is in hibernation, because of the ties to the Democratic party.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
The wars are still going on but the movement is in hibernation, because of the ties to the Democratic party.


That is probably the most retarded thing I've read this month. Which is really something of an achievement considering the month I've had.
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4191
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wars are not going on? Almost 10 years on and afghanistan is anything but stable. Or the Democrats did not absorb the antiwar movement? Because I think it is pretty clear they did and pretty clear what effect that had. So maybe your oneliner was not so "clever" after all?
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The democrats had nothing to absorb. There was never a group of anti-war advocates with any meaningful amount of political capital or even organization. Folks protested the wars, yes, but to pretend there was anything that could be accurately described as a "movement" is delusional.

And to pretend that the Occupy folks are a true movement is just as bad, no leaders, no organization, no agenda, and no means of affecting the change they espouse (never mind that Occupy has become home for a half dozen different conflicting ideologies who would tear each other apart if they did have a smidgen of power).

My one liner wasn't meant to be clever, it was simply a statement of fact. You either have no comprehension of politics in general and current American politics in particular, or you live in a magical alternate dimension that somehow interfaces with ours through this message board.

Either way, what you said is dumb in the context of this reality.
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10622
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wealth disparity between Republicans vs. Democrats FAR favors the Democrats i.e. the rich Dems be WAY richer than the rich Rep. on the high end side of the scale, y'know, that whole "1% group".

The Democrats absorbing Occupy will kill the movement, plain and simple.


Any talk of comparing it to the Tea Party is stupid. What Occupy really needs to do is just hold out until the US economy completely tanks and it can garner wide spread non-partisan support.

The controlling political parties in the US play a song and dance with the people and only care about their own interest. The Occupy Wall Street Movement is above all else ANTI-SPECIAL INTEREST, something that neither major political party is in the US.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have high hopes about Occupy becoming a group that could lobby for anything (which is antithesis to what it is trying for... I think). However, I do hope the movement will push some lawmakers to have some spine and let the Bush Era Tax Cuts expire for the upper class.

If OWS gets some spine into the Dems, I'd call it a good movement. It is at least making people more aware of the problem. Also, problems with pepper spray.

Or I am not watching enough mainstream news and everyone hates them. *shrugs*

_________________
Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10622
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Realistically it needs to stay alive for about another year to effect any sort of change. What they need to start doing is coordinating with the plethora of already established government watchdog groups whom are already out there keeping track of things like questionable spending, campaign contributions, pork barrel projects, and special interest groups in general.

If OWS becomes a "Democratic Party 'thing'" then it's going to be about as effective and influential as Obama's healthcare reforms.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3333

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Realistically it needs to stay alive for about another year to effect any sort of change. What they need to start doing is coordinating with the plethora of already established government watchdog groups whom are already out there keeping track of things like questionable spending, campaign contributions, pork barrel projects, and special interest groups in general.

If OWS becomes a "Democratic Party 'thing'" then it's going to be about as effective and influential as Obama's healthcare reforms.


The health care reform bill that doesn't really begin to take effect til 2014?

Might be why you haven't seen much effectiveness or influence of it yet.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10622
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last I checked people weren't waiting until 2014 to get sick and/or die. Regardless of what is going to happen with his bill it is still not going to be what "should have happened" with the bill. IF anything it's proof of concept that the Dems would kill OWS.

There was a report that came out back when Kerry was running against Bush that compared the wealth of individuals within the two parties and (if I recall correctly) the Dems not only had more "wealthy members" but the overall wealth of the Dems was damn near double the figure of the Republicans. Also if I recall KErry was at the top of the list (or very near it) thanks to his wife being the heiress to the Heinz fortune.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22  Next
Page 18 of 22

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group