Sinfest Forum Index Sinfest
welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Occupy Wall Street Thread
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 20, 21, 22  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10222
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
do you think that it should take priority over the things the people at ows are suggesting


If I'm understanding things correctly, they aren't that far apart in subject.


Quote:
how would you go about fixing it


Well, to start we can begin by dealing with the obvious offenders, like the homes that are boarded up with lexuses in the driveway or the people buying food with vouchers while having jewelry on them worth more than my car.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10090
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're still just looking at symptoms with that approach, not causes.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com Now in book form: http://amzn.to/14E6OFy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10090
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A spiffy op-ed, about the whining 1% on Wall Street, written by Nobel laureate and Princeton economics professor Paul Krugman:
Losing Their Immunity
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/opinion/krugman-wall-street-loses-its-immunity.html
By PAUL KRUGMAN Published: October 16, 2011
Quote:
As the Occupy Wall Street movement continues to grow, the response from the movement’s targets has gradually changed: contemptuous dismissal has been replaced by whining. (A reader of my blog suggests that we start calling our ruling class the “kvetchocracy.”) The modern lords of finance look at the protesters and ask, Don’t they understand what we’ve done for the U.S. economy?

The answer is: yes, many of the protesters do understand what Wall Street and more generally the nation’s economic elite have done for us. And that’s why they’re protesting.


On Saturday The Times reported what people in the financial industry are saying privately about the protests. My favorite quote came from an unnamed money manager who declared, “Financial services are one of the last things we do in this country and do it well. Let’s embrace it.”

This is deeply unfair to American workers, who are good at lots of things, and could be even better if we made adequate investments in education and infrastructure. But to the extent that America has lagged in everything except financial services, shouldn’t the question be why, and whether it’s a trend we want to continue?


For the financialization of America wasn’t dictated by the invisible hand of the market. What caused the financial industry to grow much faster than the rest of the economy starting around 1980 was a series of deliberate policy choices, in particular a process of deregulation that continued right up to the eve of the 2008 crisis.

Not coincidentally, the era of an ever-growing financial industry was also an era of ever-growing inequality of income and wealth. Wall Street made a large direct contribution to economic polarization, because soaring incomes in finance accounted for a significant fraction of the rising share of the top 1 percent (and the top 0.1 percent, which accounts for most of the top 1 percent’s gains) in the nation’s income. More broadly, the same political forces that promoted financial deregulation fostered overall inequality in a variety of ways, undermining organized labor, doing away with the “outrage constraint” that used to limit executive paychecks, and more.

Oh, and taxes on the wealthy were, of course, sharply reduced.

All of this was supposed to be justified by results: the paychecks of the wizard s of Wall Street were appropriate, we were told, because of the wonderful things they did. Somehow, however, that wonderfulness failed to trickle down to the rest of the nation — and that was true even before the crisis. Median family income, adjusted for inflation, grew only about a fifth as much between 1980 and 2007 as it did in the generation following World War II, even though the postwar economy was marked both by strict financial regulation and by much higher tax rates on the wealthy than anything currently under political discussion.


Then came the crisis, which proved that all those claims about how modern finance had reduced risk and made the system more stable were utter nonsense. Government bailouts were all that saved us from a financial meltdown as bad as or worse than the one that caused the Great Depression.

And what about the current situation? Wall Street pay has rebounded even as ordinary workers continue to suffer from high unemployment and falling real wages. Yet it’s harder than ever to see what, if anything, financiers are doing to earn that money.

Why, then, does Wall Street expect anyone to take its whining seriously? That money manager claiming that finance is the only thing America does well also complained that New York’s two Democratic senators aren’t on his side, declaring that “They need to understand who their constituency is.” Actually, they surely know very well who their constituency is — and even in New York, 16 out of 17 workers are employed by nonfinancial industries.

But he wasn’t really talking about voters, of course. He was talking about the one thing Wall Street still has plenty of thanks to those bailouts, despite its total loss of credibility: money.

Money talks in American politics, and what the financial industry’s money has been saying lately is that it will punish any politician who dares to criticize that industry’s behavior, no matter how gently — as evidenced by the way Wall Street money has now abandoned President Obama in favor of Mitt Romney. And this explains the industry’s shock over recent events.

You see, until a few weeks ago it seemed as if Wall Street had effectively bribed and bullied our political system into forgetting about that whole drawing lavish paychecks while destroying the world economy thing. Then, all of a sudden, some people insisted on bringing the subject up again.

And their outrage has found resonance with millions of Americans. No wonder Wall Street is whining.

_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com Now in book form: http://amzn.to/14E6OFy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9194

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's entirely fair to want to reduce the prevalence of welfare cheats, but there's a certain cost to benefit line where the more you put into trying to catch cheats, the less the system gets out of it and the money is better served just trying to increase overall coverage of the security nets. In the case of boarded houses with lexii, I'd be unsurprised if you were looking at drug dealers also getting welfare income because they're 'technically unemployed' but can make more than most people just from selling heroin. It's easy to finger welfare as the central issue, when really you're looking at something that is more a failure of our drug policy.

Pragmatic approach to policy might not favor a more disciplinary approach, but that does nothing to abate the frustration when you keep watching welfare cheats do this. But that's the point — anecdote and personal frustrations can't factor into deciding what to do. It has to be data and method driven.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10222
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
In the case of boarded houses with lexii, I'd be unsurprised if you were looking at drug dealers also getting welfare income because they're 'technically unemployed' but can make more than most people just from selling heroin. It's easy to finger welfare as the central issue, when really you're looking at something that is more a failure of our drug policy.


Go in on a welfare cheat claim, land a drug dealer. Double win.

By the by, I don't expect this to ever happen. It would be nice though. Just venting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
Sam wrote:
In the case of boarded houses with lexii, I'd be unsurprised if you were looking at drug dealers also getting welfare income because they're 'technically unemployed' but can make more than most people just from selling heroin. It's easy to finger welfare as the central issue, when really you're looking at something that is more a failure of our drug policy.


Go in on a welfare cheat claim, land a drug dealer. Double win.

By the by, I don't expect this to ever happen. It would be nice though. Just venting.


But it wouldn't be nice. There are two ways to lower welfare abuse. One is increasing the difficulty of obtaining it, which would lower welfare abuse but also proper welfare use. You'd be hard-pressed to argue that it's better that innocent poor people get screwed over to prevent a few drug dealers getting a little money than both groups getting it.

The other way is using police to track down people and verify whether people on welfare "really deserve it", which would not only be a shit-storm but also the most hilarious way to make welfare more expensive than it currently is.


Furthermore, there is little point in doing this anyway because welfare-money is almost directly put back into the economy.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eureka00



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1974
Location: Pretzel City

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that OWS is about taking big companies (so-called 1%) down a notch and getting jobs and thus more money back into the middle class (so-called 99%). So the OWS people are for getting people off welfare/vouchers/unemployment and getting them good paying jobs. All in all there seems to be a lot of confusion over what OWS really supports/condemns.

Since I was unemployed for awhile myself, I can identify with the struggles the OWS people are talking about. I hated being on unemployment because someone else was fiscally irresponsible.
_________________
Eureka00: "Reminding you of your addictions" since 1982.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10090
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the main problems is that the prevailing corporate thinking is that if the company performs poorly then everyone except upper management should suffer for it.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com Now in book form: http://amzn.to/14E6OFy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4779
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eureka00 wrote:
All in all there seems to be a lot of confusion over what OWS really supports/condemns.


This is the problem with the movement as a whole. Ask a dozen folks who are taking part and you'll get a half dozen different answers, but all of them will say that everyone agrees with them.

This goes from mildly amusing to just plain sad when you start realizing that some of the answers contradict each other.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of actual leadership and stated positions are the only thing holding many of the protesters there, because everyone thinks everyone agrees with them on their pet issue and no one with any sort of authority exists to say otherwise.
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one bright spot in the OWS movement is that it's practically guaranteed to have no effect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4779
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME SOCIAL CHANGE VIA FLASH MOB WON'T SHAKE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD?????

CEASE YOUR PRATTLING CORPORATE APOLOGIST HERETIC!!!!1!!!!1111!ONE!
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
The one bright spot in the OWS movement is that it's practically guaranteed to have no effect.


your mom is guaranteed to have no effect.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3152

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
The one bright spot in the OWS movement is that it's practically guaranteed to have no effect.


Better no effect than the effect it seems to have had in egypt.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eric_RoM



Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject: pix or it didn't happen Reply with quote

I call bullshit. If DedChickn sees these examples of fraud "every day", s/he should be a goddamn welfare fraud investigator.

In fact, it's bullshit s/he is pulling out his/her ass. It's Reagan's "cadillac driving welfare queens" all over again, and DC is just another useful idiot of the reich-wing spreading tired propaganda memes.

You see people buying luxuries? Let's see some documentation.

And frankly, so what? Pull food away from 100 'deserving' people, i.e. citizens and children, just because there MAY be some fraud? WHO CARES? We're the richest nation on earth, and if we'd quit sending soldiers to the ends of the earth we could feed everybody for the price of mobilizing one battalion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10222
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: pix or it didn't happen Reply with quote

Eric_RoM wrote:
You see people buying luxuries? Let's see some documentation.


"Excuse me sir, may I have your receipt?"

Something like that?

None of my stories are made up. Call BS all you want.

Cute job calling names though, really made your point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 20, 21, 22  Next
Page 4 of 22

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group