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andrew
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea
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tinkeringIdiot
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 1057
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 Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry all...posted and then didn't check back in for a week.
I thoroughly disagree that OWS is 'preaching to the choir.' Many working people in this country believe that the banking system as it exists is a triumph of capitalism and proof positive that Their Way Works. Many are just comfortable enough to be willing to ignore the injustice built into the system. Most are not willing to do anything to break that fragile comfort. Breaking it for them may bring more to action.
What action? That's a great question. The bank transfer day was a great idea that was actually felt by the entities subject to the protests. More ideas like that need to come forward, however I am not surprised that the proposals are not coming in a timely manner. Actually I'm happy they aren't coming in quick. A bunch of people showing up with nice permits, a very cohesive set of talking points, and a simple, sound-bite-ready action plan that is picked up by the traditional media can only happen with significant astroturfing. And given the direct consensus methods employed as a hallmark of this movement, the action plan will continue to be a slow roll. That does not mean the actions will be ineffectual.
As for media, I think the movement has some of the best media coverage I've ever seen. They are able to achieve this by completely bypassing traditional media outlets and the associated faux impartiality they bring. If you want to know what is going on in a particular protest, you can ask everyone there using twitter, or a web forum, or facebook. If you want to see and hear what is happening or what happened, you can get live and archived feeds with a click. They don't need to participate in the entertainment industry in order to make a difference; they (we) know how to use the new system. The channel five news helicopter may need to 'refuel' or be ordered out of the airspace by police during raids, but the dozens of people with backpacks full of video equipment and their own camera drones will be able to give anyone willing to look a view that cannot be easily stagemanaged by those in power. At least until SOPA passes.
Back to the question I asked earlier, are you guys (ShadowCell and Monkey) proposing that a leader is needed in order to have any action be effective? In order to decide on a course of action? That seems to be what you're implying, but I'm not sure. Please expand upon the specific needs that can only be addressed by a chosen leader if you have the time. It is a topic that I would really like to discuss further. |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 4449
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Well. Since you seem to be pivoting so much on all this "direct consensus" and "alternative method" stuff, I have to ask before I can say anything else: what is the point of Occupy Wall Street, as far as you're concerned? Is it an experiment in alternative methods of governance or discourse? Is it to achieve concrete goals, like student loan reform or tax reform? Is it both? Is it something else? |
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Him
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3833
Location: Strange planet
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2379
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Sadly unsuprising in texas. Is it too late to force them to be their own nation yet? |
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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5084
Location: Iowa City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Not that the big red tent isn't absurd (it is!) but that gas canister was used to keep the tent inflated. And it's a bit disingenuous to say the police trapped the protesters when the protesters were laying in the street to block traffic.
A not-crazy-him-description might be something like Houston police go to insane (and possibly insanely expensive) lengths to prevent people from filming them arrest protesters.
Mind you, the Houston PD has an explanation, but I can't say I buy it.
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Scire aliquid laus est, pudor est non discere velle
"It is laudable to know something, it is disgraceful to not want to learn"
~Seneca |
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Him
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3833
Location: Strange planet
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Just got that update from the livestream too. But yeah I suppose the point was that there wouldn't be an police abuse filmed on camera.
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'[Obama] is like a dog, running around biting peaceful people for no reason.' - Cristi Wang |
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tinkeringIdiot
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 1057
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: |
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A bunch of officers standing around with no identifying information that fear the camera so much that they hide their actions even AFTER removing or covering their badge numbers is wrong. Don't care much what they did on the inside of that tent, don't care much why those people were lying there in the road.
| ShadowCell wrote: | | Well. Since you seem to be pivoting so much on all this "direct consensus" and "alternative method" stuff, I have to ask before I can say anything else: what is the point of Occupy Wall Street, as far as you're concerned? Is it an experiment in alternative methods of governance or discourse? Is it to achieve concrete goals, like student loan reform or tax reform? Is it both? Is it something else? |
I do think that the movement taken as a whole represents a fundamentally different method and means of governing more than carrying any one issue. The apparent disarray of their positions, the new and unexpected means of communication and decision making, and the issues that have been accepted so far point to that, in my mind. The problems and events which gave rise to this current movement are symptomatic of issues which strike to the very core - indeed perhaps the very intersection of - capitalism, representative democracy, and the right of people to free. No single issue and no single leader is big enough to address such core issues.
I think at this point it is best thought of as experimentation in search of a solution rather than an issue-driven protest, which is easier to comprehend in light of 20th century history. This feels like something different altogether. |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 4449
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Well. Then in that case the issue of organization, leadership, or achieving anything is moot.
But I will say that if that's what you're out there for, you'd better do it quicker, because whether you're trying to find a new method of protesting or not, the cops have the same old methods of breaking them--and those still work. |
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 8366
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| tinkeringIdiot wrote: | | I think at this point it is best thought of as experimentation in search of a solution rather than an issue-driven protest, which is easier to comprehend in light of 20th century history. This feels like something different altogether. |
As I see it, as long as people are protesting and others are in turn talking about them, OWS is succeeding.
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...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com |
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tinkeringIdiot
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 1057
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| And as long as the cops and their masters continue to use the same old techniques, the same old style of protest will still have an impact. |
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Arc Tempest
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4447
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| tinkeringIdiot wrote: | | I think at this point it is best thought of as experimentation in search of a solution rather than an issue-driven protest, which is easier to comprehend in light of 20th century history. This feels like something different altogether. |
I've heard stuff like this quite a few times now, I just don't buy it. There is nothing experimental here. Nothing new is being tried and nothing new is being learned. Nothing is being accomplished aside from inconveniencing (or outright fucking over) the people OWS is purported to support and making cops look bad (something I usually favor).
If this isn't an issue driven protest then why use the same techniques? What is there to gain? And how?
| tinkeringIdiot wrote: | | And as long as the cops and their masters continue to use the same old techniques, the same old style of protest will still have an impact. |
What impact is that exactly?
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The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice. |
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Him
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3833
Location: Strange planet
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Any comprehensive list of the port shutdowns? Seemed pretty amazing.
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'[Obama] is like a dog, running around biting peaceful people for no reason.' - Cristi Wang |
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 8366
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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