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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17278
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: In an actual debate, both sides provide evidence. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Since you don't seem to like the numbers I have provided you, it is time for you to provide the numbers you feel are appropriate.

I ask you the simple questions:

How long is the average commute for the blue collar worker?

What is the maximum commute possible for the blue collar worker?

How long is the average commute for the white collar worker?

What is the maximum commute possible for the white collar worker?




Remember kids, this isn't an actual debate, this is a quest for knowledge.


i know i shouldn't, but i was inspired to see how hard it actually was to get this sort of info. disclaimer - maximum possible commute is a pointless metric, it could be that people with huge commutes don't have kids they need to parent (hey, sex takes time too!) besides, the longest commute is probably by some billionaire who lives on an island somewhere and flies his private jet to work. so: probably not blue collar.

anyway - i googled 'average commute time' and came up with this. high points of this page:
Quote:
The median commute time is 30 minutes, meaning approximately half of workers spend less than 30 minutes commuting to work and approximately half spend more time than this.

ok, formatting is screwed up, but basically only 17% of workers spend 90 minutes or more commuting. but! says thy - how do you know these aren't all blue collar workers?

well, because they break it down by income level. and guess what? of people who earn < $50,000/yr (this was in 2007), 13% spend 90+ minutes commuting (mean=40.9 min) while for those earning $50,000, 20% spend 90+ minutes commuting, for an average commute of 49.2 min. well, here - i'll quote them exactly:

Quote:
American workers residing in higher income households are more likely to report having a longer round-trip commute to work than workers in lower income households. Workers residing in households earning less than $50,000 per year report an average commute of 40.9 minutes in a typical day. This compares with an average 49.2-minute commute among those earning $50,000 or more per year.


now - before thy starts saying that of course blue collar workers can make a lot of money (or more likely, accuses one of us of equating blue collar with poor) - when he brought this up, it was to say that blue collar workers had no time to spend with their kids because they had to work all day and night just to put food on the table. so really, what he's saying is poor people don't have enough time for their kids. and to thy, poor people must be blue collar workers. pink and white collar workers, as we all know, have all kinds of money (and time).

oh, just for fun: i found average commute times for san diego. although they don't seem to be adjusting for the probability that your commute will be totally screwed because there is an accident on the only freeway that gets you where you need to go.

and i _did_ try googling 'average commute time blue collar', but it gave me this thread....
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: In an actual debate, my dick is on your lips Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Snorri wrote:
It takes a massive pair of balls to say what you said and then ask the other side to give you the numbers you actually need. And an even masssiver pair to imply it's their fault for not doing so!

the pair of balls that is required to give a quote without a source while that quote does not actually say anything, act like Sojobo's problem is that you haven't a source and then giving a source like it settles it all is somewhat the massive in between.


for real bro, I can't structure my sentences because your stupidity is too big.


Related:

http://www.sinfest.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=416551&highlight=#416551

He does this, and he contorts wildly when caught doing it

just be prepared


oddly enough, i was thinking about that very thread in connection to this discussion - and that was before he again threw out a book that he apparently hadn't actually read, just because he thought the title would explain it all (although in this case, i don't see why even the title appealed to him).

but this _does_ provide me an opportunity to provide the rejoinder i thought about then: dude. this guy wasn't reacting to escaping sudden death. he was on leave, in new york city. in times square, even. judging from those crowds, even the taxis weren't moving, so why would he suddenly be amazed that he is alive?
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Snorri go listen to some Snoop Dogg. Reply with quote

Dogen and Co seem to have a problem with understanding the fact that I become furious when I see the "look at how hard I had it, but I still made it through life, you should have no problem too" attitude.

It's the reason I lashed out at him the other day.




As for the actual argument, you are asking me to quantify something that is very difficult to quantify over text, or even data.


The best I could do is provide clues as to why that may be so, by suggesting a myriad of factors, such as commuting, or physical tiredness, whatever.

But I really can't take someone seriously when they try to suggest that all parents should have enough time to spend with their children.

That's just plain privileged bullshit.


I've seen neglected kids with my own eyes. That's how I know I'm right.

You don't need me to convince you, just take a look around once in a while; go to some slums and see it for yourself.



Also Sam, aren't you tired of the anti-Thy propaganda yet? Would you mind peddling your smut elsewhere while we try to stay on a non meta topic?
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Re: In an actual debate, my dick is on your lips Reply with quote

mouse wrote:


oddly enough, i was thinking about that very thread in connection to this discussion -


Well it is the same thread. Seriously, this is what we went through just a couple dozen pages back in this very same thread.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Doggystyle is a great album. Reply with quote

yo thy I don't know why you want me to listen to some Snoop Dogg but I took your advice!

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Dogen and Co seem to have a problem with understanding the fact that I become furious when I see the "look at how hard I had it, but I still made it through life, you should have no problem too" attitude.

It's the reason I lashed out at him the other day.

I feel bad for you man but people aren't actually bringing you some boot-strap shit. They're just pointing out that your reasoning is ridiculous.


Quote:

As for the actual argument, you are asking me to quantify something that is very difficult to quantify over text, or even data.


The best I could do is provide clues as to why that may be so, by suggesting a myriad of factors, such as commuting, or physical tiredness, whatever.

But I really can't take someone seriously when they try to suggest that all parents should have enough time to spend with their children.

That's just plain privileged bullshit.

Right! It is!

Luckily that's not actually what anyone is suggesting!

Thank god for that.
Quote:

I've seen neglected kids with my own eyes. That's how I know I'm right.

You don't need me to convince you, just take a look around once in a while; go to some slums and see it for yourself.


yo we all gonna visit slums next week but seriously bro the actual problem is that you just made up some ridiculous shit about shit.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to go way back to even find what this whole argument was about. It was about involving parents in abortions their children have or something.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. Thy believed that kids should have to seek parental consent for abortions, apparently because they don't have the time and energy to be parents and when their kid is pregnant is the best time to force them to have "the talk." Even though research suggests this has worse outcomes for kids.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: Snorri go listen to some Snoop Dogg. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Dogen and Co seem to have a problem with understanding the fact that I become furious when I see the "look at how hard I had it, but I still made it through life, you should have no problem too" attitude.

It's the reason I lashed out at him the other day.

This should be contrasted with what appeared to be your position, which was that we shouldn't expect blue collar workers to be parents to their kids, which is an equally privileged (and demeaning) position. Which is why you got stories of blue collar workers (or reasonable facsimiles) being parents - to contrast with your blanket statements that they couldn't be.

Quote:
As for the actual argument, you are asking me to quantify something that is very difficult to quantify over text, or even data.

We didn't ask you to do anything. You brought up blue collar workers. You made claims about what they could and couldn't do. Then we asked you to support those claims with evidence. If you don't have evidence, you should stop making unsupported claims.

Quote:
The best I could do is provide clues as to why that may be so, by suggesting a myriad of factors, such as commuting, or physical tiredness, whatever.

Right, but those suggestions turned out to be false. Blue collar workers, as far as we can tell, don't have longer commutes or work longer hours (on average). So if you want to hold out blue collar workers as people who can't be interactive parents you need to come up with a reason that has evidentiary support, or give up the position.

Quote:
But I really can't take someone seriously when they try to suggest that all parents should have enough time to spend with their children.

That's just plain privileged bullshit.

Ditto the argument that none of them can - luckily I don't think anyone is actually making either argument. Some people are good parents and some aren't, regardless of the SES or job description. End of story.

Quote:
I've seen neglected kids with my own eyes. That's how I know I'm right.

You don't need me to convince you, just take a look around once in a while; go to some slums and see it for yourself.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't float my boat (nor should it for anyone who wants to be right). It's data or bust.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Snorri go listen to some Snoop Dogg. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:

Also Sam, aren't you tired of the anti-Thy propaganda yet? Would you mind peddling your smut elsewhere while we try to stay on a non meta topic?


Meta, anti-thy propaganda, you say. You mean you make bullshit claims, get caught on them, then stumble forward without reconciling your own bullshit for anyone. It's only meta in the sense that the bullshit you are peddling now is pretty much the exact same bullshit you peddled before, and it just goes to show that you don't learn and people should be actively aware of your habits, re: being a lying bullshitter.

You got caught flat-out doing it before and brought to task for it. You're getting caught doing the same thing here, and you're being brought to task for it. I'm glad you think it's meta-level anti-you propaganda to get caught, because you otherwise show no understanding of the fact that, as i said, you proved you are not credible and your statements and experience cannot be taken as credible at face value, and you are a dodgy untrustworthy 'sourcer.'

Quote:
But I really can't take someone seriously when they try to suggest that all parents should have enough time to spend with their children.


Yeah man good thing nobody made that claim, instead people just pointed out how the things you have suggested or claimed about blue collar workers was untrue, and then you put up a source as though it were the slam-dunk BAM CHECK IT OUT I WAS RIGHT but then when people read the source it wasn't saying anything you claimed. Now you're contorting and saying essentially 'well i was suggesting a myriad of factors'

I'll give it a shot too. Myself, I can't take someone seriously when they say that a blue collar parent literally does not have time for an important conversation with their kid, because it's bullshit. I further can't take that person seriously when they then, in the shadow of said bullshit, try to hedge their life experience about non-privileged children that you done seen with your own eyes, and tell people off saying why don't you go to the slums and see for yourself.

Eiden's quote goes a long way here. You can't be trusted to have a rational understanding of what you are doing and we can't trust your interpretations. The end
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Canopus



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon against you. The refusal to compromise is a useful quality in some regards. That said, do you always need to be right?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an addendum about declarative statements, and also why you'll notice I rarely make exclusive arguments (I say X usually happens, rather than X happens).

If you say "blue collar workers don't have time" that means ALL people in the category of blue collar workers. Thus, it's A) almost certainly wrong, and B) only requires one example in order to be proven wrong. This is why Thy got stories, not because anyone wanted cred for having a hard life.

If you say "many blue collar workers don't have time" then one example to the contrary is insufficient. It's harder to argue against because it's more vague, but also probably closer to the truth.

So there you have it. This has been another episode of Logic with Dogen. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: In an actual debate, both sides provide evidence. Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
and i _did_ try googling 'average commute time blue collar', but it gave me this thread....


I needed to see for myself:

in quotes:



with omitted searches:



and not in quotes:



While the last one surprised me the recursiveness of the first two made me giggle.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want this shirt
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hah, well it has some good points for sure buuuut I wont be wearing it around town anytime soon. I -should- be allowes without getting harrassed, especially considering the shit my ex could wear, but reality makes me think it wouldn't end well.
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
I want this shirt


TIL I'm not a men's right activist.

also, that site broke my vision.
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