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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6183
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

besides which, the last time we had one of the two dominant parties actually collapse was the 1850s, and that was over slavery--an issue that cut across the Whigs and Democrats, and revealed that the real political division in the United States at that time was geographic, and the Whigs and Democrats didn't really abide by it. the Democrats were able to reposition themselves enough to survive. the Whigs didn't figure that out, they got torn apart, the Northern pro-business pro-public-works pro-capitalist anti-slavery Whigs turned into Republicans, and the rest is history*.

*highly simplified; slavery wasn't the only problem the Whigs had, but it was the one that doomed them

i really don't see any issue on the political radar today that is anything like slavery in the 1850s. slavery in the 1850s was everywhere; you couldn't talk about anything in politics without it going back to slavery. politicians of the time, including Lincoln himself if i recall correctly, complained that no other issue could get a national hearing because slavery was always in the air.

what do we have today that's anything like that?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deficits and national debt, but that's mostly a boogieman wielded by the one party that doesn't have anything else to appeal to the national stage anymore.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd say jobs and unemployment, but clearly no one cares about _that_.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Penny arcades current scandal Legitimate transphobia or internet tempest in a teapot made worse by someone doubling down. Are the reactions in proportion to the offense?

Given that we've gathered a pretty decent cadre of people identifying as trans i'd like to hear some takes.

Given PAX's generally safe and friendly reputation vs harassment and my own tendency to reply to peoples pedantic nitpicking with "go fuck yourself" I'm leaning toward tempest in a teapot.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Penny arcades current scandal Legitimate transphobia or internet tempest in a teapot made worse by someone doubling down. Are the reactions in proportion to the offense?

Given that we've gathered a pretty decent cadre of people identifying as trans i'd like to hear some takes.

Given PAX's generally safe and friendly reputation vs harassment and my own tendency to reply to peoples pedantic nitpicking with "go fuck yourself" I'm leaning toward tempest in a teapot.


We've had a discussion about this over on the pa forums. It's a tempest in a teapot, Mike has the tendency to get into shit and then deeper shit by responding very harshly. The guy who runs all the actual things, Robert Khoo, knows this but keeping up with twitter is kinda hard.

Mike has apologised about this shit and posted a discussion he's had with a friend who is transgender who explained to him what the actual problem was (no one else actually bothered to do that) and he totally realised he was wrong. Also donated 20k to charity.

Which shows what the actual fucking problem here really was. At the moment internet-feminists from the Shakesville way of things don't actually speak the same language as others. Mike couldn't understand the problem with saying "Women have vaginas". Because that isn't actually a wrong statement according to most people. This is literally what you learn in school everywhere, even the most transgender friendly countries.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Mike couldn't understand the problem with saying "Women have vaginas". Because that isn't actually a wrong statement according to most people. This is literally what you learn in school everywhere, even the most transgender friendly countries.

In fact that's what they learn by the time they hit kindergarten.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this guy said some pretty fucking stupid shit, and then compounded it by repeatedly posting petty inflammatory arguments. It wasn't just saying that "Women have a vagina".




Then again, I've never been a fan of Penny Arcade.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't the reason I stopped following him on twitter... but it was definitely other shit kinda like this. It was only a matter of time that it totally blew up in his face.

Who knows if his apology was earnest? People who care more will have to watch and find out, I guess.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Well, this guy said some pretty fucking stupid shit, and then compounded it by repeatedly posting petty inflammatory arguments. It wasn't just saying that "Women have a vagina".




Then again, I've never been a fan of Penny Arcade.


To be fair he responded to someone saying: "Holy fuck I hate cis men." He legitimately thought cis was some kind of slur.

I'm not saying he wasn't being ignorant. I'm simply saying that being ignorant of transgender issues is the motherfucking norm. The nomenclature and theories within modern feminism aren't actually things anyone outside of some internet circles and academia are aware of. Most people aren't even aware of the issues, expecting them to be aware of them and having thought about them is just silly.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is one thing to be ignorant, but when people explain it to you and you're still behaving as you did when you were ignorant - mounting a defense that belittles and insults the group you've just learned you've been unknowingly stepping on - then it's not cool.

And that's so awesome for you that you don't have to care, Snorri. I'm glad that the problems I get to experience don't actually matter because most normal people haven't heard of them.

I mean, that's why it's so weird when I get to hear of trans people outside my state who can get fired for simply being trans, who can't get married, who can lose their apartments, who can be left to die while at hospitals, who can't find a place to pee, and who have to prostitute themselves in order to survive.

What the fuck are they complaining for?

Because, fuck - normal people have never dealt with trans issues, so why act like they are worth fixing? It's not like trans people and trans allies have tried explaining anything, right? I mean, normal people wouldn't be such asshats as to blatantly ignore or toss insults back in return when trans people and allies bring up problems, would they?

As long as the normal people like Snorri are happy, fuck the rest of us!

As for me, I wouldn't attend PAX ever, and I worry because my partner is going to go. He nearly changed his mind after this recent thing because being safe didn't sound like it was going to happen. But when the dude seemed like he had learned, my partner felt reassured about attending.

I do want to attend Orycon, because they have gone to some lengths to be trans inclusive. Apparently last year was a disaster, but for the longest time they've been awesome.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It used to be the norm to beat gender variance out of your kid, and try to force them to conform.

A friend of mine came out as trans. His parents broke plates over his head. They took him to a therapist.

Suddenly, he decided he wasn't 'he' anymore. And then my friend pretty much disappeared from internet life, and who knows what they're doing now?

I can't know if they actually discovered they weren't trans. But the broken plates and reparative therapy say otherwise.

Having heard of reparative therapy, and other bizarre things that are meant to force kids to obey and also love their parents, I kept all this stuff to myself. And when I was in the military, I also kept it to myself - though it kept leaking out all over the place and people were happy to pass around really horrible rumors.

And then I finally got to a place where I could just come out and actually talk about things and be myself. And I lost a lot of people who I thought would actually be understanding and awesome. I made the mistake of thinking these geeky normal people would decide, "Oh, hey, this person is a human being and even if I don't get it, I'll learn more about it and be chill."

Instead I was yelled at, or people talked to be about the good old days when everyone was just normal. (Nevermind they weren't good days for people like me.) Someone with cancer whom I deeply respected screamed at me about how I was insulting and afflicting everyone with cancer, because she just had surgery and my very existence invalidated her as a person. (What?) There were plenty of other things I'm not going to share.


I had to spend a lot of effort and do a lot of leaving important things behind to get to where I am. My point is not that I've had it the worst and look at me, how badass I am. I'm just saying that being trans has placed me in countless situations where it brought me grief and danger; So when I tell someone that I am trans and I need a safe space and make request or offer suggestions on how a space can be made safe, I'm doing it for a fucking reason.

Of course, you don't have to do a god-damn thing. You have every right to continue as you are continuing. But it isn't trans people and their horrendously intrusive demands for a safe space (Because requesting that a place should maybe not be so hostile when most places you can go to are dangerous or anxious making or whatever is so mean. I mean, what am I thinking, wanting a supposedly welcoming place to actually provide bathrooms and have a general rule that harassment which can lead to panic attacks will not be tolerated? I'm such a fucking fun killer.)

But you do need to understand it isn't trans people that are the factor there. That's all you.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As long as the normal people like Snorri are happy, fuck the rest of us!

That's not what he's saying at all. Please don't take it that way.

Snorri wasn't saying the problem is with trans people. In fact, he was saying exactly that the problem is with everybody else. He's also not saying that he doesn't have to care, or that this issue isn't worth fixing. All he did was sum up why this issue is so prevalent and how it played into the PA incident.

And this is something Mike had to run up against the hard way and have explained to him by someone who is trans, because most people (not "normal" people, nobody here ever used that term) don't have experience with it. After that point (as far as I know) he pretty much stopped belittling the people that were attacking him. He made what looks to me like an actual heartfelt apology (not a non-apology) and a promise to work through his issues and faults over this, as well as putting a small fortune behind that by donating to an LGBT crisis support group (which he essentially gave a significant advertising and awareness boost to by linking it on one of the internet's most widely read comic and gaming sites).

I don't read Twitter so I'm basically just going by the PA news posts which, obviously, are just his side of the story. But at least they're not tweets.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/19/twiiter-sucks-sometimes
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/going-one-step-further
Also, Jerry points out that LGBT/trans groups or advocates boycotting PAX cons is not helping. In fact it removes their voices from the dialog there. When he says the Harassment Policy will be used to kick scumbags out, he means it.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fistbump to everyone in this thread, you people are awesome.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize it might be too much to expect everyone to understand transsexuality and everything it pertains, but the fact that people have to learn so much about it by themselves because our society refuses to talk about it is actually a big problem.

Being ignorant of transgender may be the norm but it shouldn't be.

And let's be honest here, why can't the PA guy just google the word if he isn't sure what it means? I do that constantly, it's not a big deal not to know certain terms. The internet is such a useful medium. I say he deserves to be made fun of. We shouldn't have to be considerate of him just because he thinks cis means something else. Especially if he isn't considerate of transgenders.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does he deserve to be made fun of now that he has apparently taken the criticisms to heart and learned more about the issue, started reforming himself, and given more money than I've ever had at once to an LGBT crisis support service?
To me it sounds like he already learned from his mistake and is taking steps to fix his ignorance. That's unfortunately rare. Are you going to keep piling on someone who's trying to do the right thing?
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