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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's good for the goose...
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
What's good for the goose...

The bill was introduced last year. That session is over and the bill went nowhere. This is old news.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man i hate it when places post old shit with a current date
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me too! I think journalists should get fined for that shit.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Quote:
As long as the normal people like Snorri are happy, fuck the rest of us!

That's not what he's saying at all. Please don't take it that way.

Snorri wasn't saying the problem is with trans people. In fact, he was saying exactly that the problem is with everybody else. He's also not saying that he doesn't have to care, or that this issue isn't worth fixing. All he did was sum up why this issue is so prevalent and how it played into the PA incident.

And this is something Mike had to run up against the hard way and have explained to him by someone who is trans, because most people (not "normal" people, nobody here ever used that term) don't have experience with it. After that point (as far as I know) he pretty much stopped belittling the people that were attacking him. He made what looks to me like an actual heartfelt apology (not a non-apology) and a promise to work through his issues and faults over this, as well as putting a small fortune behind that by donating to an LGBT crisis support group (which he essentially gave a significant advertising and awareness boost to by linking it on one of the internet's most widely read comic and gaming sites).

I don't read Twitter so I'm basically just going by the PA news posts which, obviously, are just his side of the story. But at least they're not tweets.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/19/twiiter-sucks-sometimes
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/going-one-step-further
Also, Jerry points out that LGBT/trans groups or advocates boycotting PAX cons is not helping. In fact it removes their voices from the dialog there. When he says the Harassment Policy will be used to kick scumbags out, he means it.



Okay yes exactly what you just said. We are running into a problem of translation here where people look to be speaking the same language aren't speaking the same language at all. It's not that there is a problem with the LBGT movement, it's that they are a bit quick to assume that others outside of the movement are aware of what happens within the movement. Mike looks like he's totally in the internet just like you and me, but he isn't actually. He hasn't read up about it, and I was saying that that is the norm. As in, away from the internet the world isn't knowledgeable about these issues.


I'm not saying that being ignorant of the issues is okay. I'm saying that you should expect it. And that you should understand that it's currently the norm because most folk out there aren't aware for the simple reason that they haven't been told. You see all kinds of sweet stories about how a group of people learned to accept a friend of theirs being transgender, but realise that that shows where the issue is. People are changing their entire way of thinking because they know transgender people. If you don't know any how could you even start changing your mind?
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
It is one thing to be ignorant, but when people explain it to you and you're still behaving as you did when you were ignorant - mounting a defense that belittles and insults the group you've just learned you've been unknowingly stepping on - then it's not cool.

And that's so awesome for you that you don't have to care, Snorri. I'm glad that the problems I get to experience don't actually matter because most normal people haven't heard of them.


No I'm saying that they absolutely matter. I am also saying that the fact that most people haven't experienced them means you can't expect most people to get it.

Mike did get it explained to him, and he totally realised he was being a dick and apologised. It's just that that explanation didn't happen on twitter and the shit on twitter was either simple attacks or difficult arguments for anyone not knowledgeable of the issues. Mike posted a lengthy e-mail conversation he had about this thing that got him to realise the error of his ways. This is not a thing you can get people to get over twitter because it requires a lot of explanation.


140 just simply isn't enough to convince, yo. We've seen how hard a 4 panel comic has it with convincing people about this thing. Twitter isn't much better.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your point appears to be, "Hey, be understanding of ignorance, because most people have it!" Is that your point?
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One doesn't have to be sympathetic to ignorance to understand that it is common. Nor does it excuse the behavior of being a dick about being ignorant (which is really damn common).
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Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you or anyone you know plans on attending Cascade Writers in July of this year, and are worried you might get harassed, a friend of mine who is attending will totally get your back.

http://plunderpuss.net/wordpress/i-am-your-posse/

He encourages others who are able to consider doing the same at other conventions, and to advertise that fact here:

http://iamyourposse.tumblr.com/

I can vouch that he is the anti-thesis of creepy, and very goofy, and is good at drawing kitties.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Your point appears to be, "Hey, be understanding of ignorance, because most people have it!" Is that your point?

If you're not going to try and understand where someone's coming from, why should you expect understanding out of them?
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked if that was the point being made. I paraphrased to show that this is what I think is being said, so that I can ascertain that it is indeed the point being made.

Because I have a lot more to say on the subject, which I will, once it is absolutely clear this is what is being said.
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TIAB



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's willful ignorance and there's just sheer obliviousness. You can't fault someone for simply being oblivious, especially when they are receptive to being informed. Blaming them is on par with yelling at a six year old for failing to understand algebra. People who are oblivious on any issue should be informed and not attacked. As was demonstrated in this case, attacking him for his oblivious comments put him on the defensive and made him unreceptive towards any new perspective. His friend informing him of his lack of perspective led him to understand what was wrong about what he said and to actually do something to further the cause.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who here actually thinks the trans people and allies who responded negatively to this guy had no idea he might ignorant and uneducated? Or that they are unaware that a lot of people are ignorant about trans issues?

Do you think that I've never run into someone who was uneducated about trans issues and was being an ass because of it? What do you think my first reaction was upon finding out about this kerfuffle?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I don't really know what to think given the way you jumped down Snorri's throat and attributed some pretty vile opinions to him.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could have something to do with the whole telling a minority how it should do its business in response to prejudice - or the assumption that the people responding must simply be unaware that some people are simply ignorant and that if they only knew clearly they'd offer to teach this person what's what.

There is an expectation that people from minorities should be gentle souls willing and able to offer teachable moments to any wayward souls that say ignorant things. No matter how ignominious or how many ignorant, insulting, degrading things that minority person has heard that day. That pisses me off.

I personally think the best way to educate someone is to sit down with them and talk it over with them. Because ignorance is not always willful and not always the fault of the person who has it, and many are happy to mend their ways.

However, not everyone wants to sign on to this mission. And even those that do have bad days. They have times when it's just too much, and one more ignorant asshat says that one thing too many.

And while sitting and talking with people is a very helpful thing to do, there is also worth in people being called out. Public figures who show their ignorance facing public censure provides a lesson and helps to change perspective as well.

Which you may find harsh. You can sit and say, "Now, hold on! That's not nice." But you're not the one whose right to urinate and not bleed to death is not being legislated by people who are elected by those with the current state of knowledge.

I wasn't expecting to read what Snorri wrote, and I was actually going to post that this was another sign of progress - someone who was ignorant was called out, and even though they lashed out at first, they listened about the issue and then apologized. That is progress, and that makes me happy. That is still not the norm, but it is becoming more common.


I don't know, maybe we could talk about how it would just be better if all the black people could sit down and patiently explain to Paula Deen that she just needs to be a bit nicer, and patiently explain racism to her. It's not like she could be expected to know otherwise, given how she was raised, and it's not like in this day and age we should be able to expect for white people to really believe that black people are fully human. That's silly.
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