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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briefly going back to the subject of harassment at conventions, here is one attendee's story and walkthrough of the process.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference between women's advocacy (I think that's the right term for the thing I'm okay with and sometimes actively support?) and feminism (the thing that carries some of the most evil of idealogical baggage) just hit me like a bag of bricks again.


blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh Sad
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, you want to make another go at articulating what the difference actually is? Because, frankly, I still don't understand.

Like, I assume you're not just swinging into this thread to complain about "feminism" in super vague terms and actually expect not to get called on it. Again.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't feminism just "I want women to have equal pay and other rights"?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HR is reaching Sam levels of vagueness.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Isn't feminism just "I want women to have equal pay and other rights"?

That is what it should be. Even though the majority of people are, the vocal minority has had a tendency to sometimes make other people not feel that's what it is at all, particularly when they are the ones leading. It's that way with anything that becomes a movement though. Sometimes you have people that are polarizing in your movement.

Though...that does bring on another philosophical point. Is it needed? Go back to African American rights. Martin Luther King is now the face of it for the history books, and overall it's the face it needs. But also big names Malcom X show up, and he went a very different approach. Many accused him of promoting racism and 'black supremacy'. Was his part (and people like him) useful? Did he overall help/hurt the cause with certain groups? Many radical feminists use the same types of approach he used. They have the same anger and seem to want more than just equality to many of Feminism's opponents. That tends to push part of Feminism to be that way, the ones who follow them, even if they don't 100% agree. So...maybe history will decide. Is it good or bad to have those types of people in a movement? Does having someone that your opponents can demonize hurt your movement? Or does having them promote people's actions (Sometimes even through anger) help motivate people enough that it warrants them being there?
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, also on a different subject, a random bit of awesome...in the form of an interview I'd never seen from Dustin Hoffman (about dressing as a woman in Tootsie and his revelations):

http://www.themarysue.com/dustin-hoffman-tootsie/
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you... really just question whether or not feminism is needed?

Because we've got this handy 200+ page thread that brings up a lot of points, some obvious, some not so obvious, that kind of say it's still extremely relevant and necessary.

Like, we've even had the "should feminism be rebranded" argument and everything.

The answer is "it should NOT be rebranded" because whatever we call it is going to receive the same scornful treatment feminism gets because it's easier to maintain the status quo than admit to a problem and people are really good at dismissing something in a myriad of creative ways. One of which involves questioning the validity of a thing. Repeatedly.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Did you... really just question whether or not feminism is needed?

No...uh...not at all actually. I'm rereading trying to see if my point was that lost in that. I guess time will tell here shortly. I was talking about a specific type of Feminist, just like Malcom X was a particular type of revolutionary than Martin Luther King Jr. It's the type that most people refer to as 'Rad Fems' or whatever. They're the ones that spearhead a lot of the parts of the movement that fit a very specific agenda, one that's not necessarily always equality. A lot of times, they're the ones that have had the shittiest lives though, so they're quite angry and thus very motivating to others. And just like Malcom X, they're more likely to promote methods like violence to achieve their goals. People outside the movement point to them as "What Feminism is" instead of the vast majority of Feminists who aren't as extreme.

So that was a philosophical question on whether those types of people are helpful to a cause more than negative in the fact that people can use them as strawmen against the cause. Basically, Malcom X was used quite badly at the time to show why the African-American equality movement was evil. But he also motivated a lot of people, even though it meant more people upset at the movement after the fact.

Would the changes have happened without him? Would less people have been angry about the movement as a whole if he (or similar people) hadn't been there for the media to show in a negative light? How would things be different over time following these events? Philosophy!
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Isn't feminism just "I want women to have equal pay and other rights"?


That's what it should be, but for reasons beyond my comprehension isn't always.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah okay, that's not quite as horrifying as I originally read it as. Sorry for skimming like that.

I don't really know the answer to your question, though, because let's be real here, there will ALWAYS be radicals. In -everything-. To ask if they're more harmful than not is kind of a moot point when it's not like we can get rid of them anyway.

I don't mean for that to sound so defeatist, but I think it'd be more productive to try and make changes that -can- be made. Like pointing out how ALL movements have crazy radicals, so why is it the radfems are the ones that define feminism in media when other major movements are NOT being defined by their radicals.

(Holy shit I had the weirdest sense of dejavu. I need to go to bed before I start sifting through the thread because I'm pretty sure I've said something like this before.)
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Dro



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some interesting studies in the past months about women in science fields. In the life sciences, women are or near the majority of PhD in most fields, but then there is a rapid drop-off of women in faculty jobs and tenure. Some of it is structural--science is unforgiving to even momentary lapses in productivity, so a baby can derail career trajectory. Some of it is breaking into old boy networks. These papers look at presenting at meetings--an important way to gain recognition needed for grants and advancement.
This one is pretty clear:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0049682
Men organizers invite men in this particular field, at least. See figure 2.

This one finds a more complicated situation:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jeb.12198/abstract
Women turn down invitations at a much higher rate, although that doesn't fully explain differences in representation. So conferences need to think about how to make themselves more appealing (the suggestion is family prevents high levels of travel). Many conferences are in semi-exotic locales which may add to travel time, lack facilities for childcare, etc. But it also may be that women value time with family more and won't make the choice to travel to the degree men do, even with reduced barriers to participation.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I don't mean for that to sound so defeatist, but I think it'd be more productive to try and make changes that -can- be made. Like pointing out how ALL movements have crazy radicals, so why is it the radfems are the ones that define feminism in media when other major movements are NOT being defined by their radicals.

Actually...while I agree that it's pointless to focus on them, I have to disagree about the other point. I think a lot of movements get defined by the radicals. Especially any movement that goes against the status quo, but all the others will get it too. Look at politics. Look at religions. Anything that exemplifies the worst traits of a group gets used to demonize the whole thing by its opponents. It's simple debate strategy to go for the weak spot and act like it's the entirety of the whole group.

However, just like Malcom X was used back then, it didn't change the overall situation from shifting in a good way to the outcome everyone wanted. In fact, due to rallying and applying pressure, people often say it was helpful. Maybe the same can be said about rad fems. Who knows. I guess time will tell. (Even if we dislike them in the moment for giving the movement a bad name at times.)
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good post from another forum:

Quote:
A stranger online tells you they were raped. You offer them sympathy and nice words.

Best case scenario: you have validated a victim of a crime many people will vilify and blame. Perhaps you make them feel a little better.

Worst case scenario: they were lying. Either you find out they were lying and feel like a fool for five seconds, or you never find out they were lying and continue on with your life as usual.

A stranger online tells you they were raped. You reply with doubt, blame, or other various cruel words.

Best case scenario: I don't even know why anyone would do that, maybe there's a sense of satisfaction in calling someone on their possible bullshit

Worst case scenario: You have bullied and further victimized the victim of a terrible crime.


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redrose



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://t0risg0rawr.tumblr.com/post/54886659804/signal-boost-please-yesterday-a-facebook-page

I saw this post and it made me think of this thread and the discussion going on in the comic. It just shows that we need feminism to stop this type of disgusting behavior. The fact that so many are supporting it, including women, makes me a little sadder that this is the world we are still living in.
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