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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I was confused, and thought they'd both put out a statement.

Feiticeira wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
He did something wrong and the internet is calling him out for it. His apology has been inadequate...


What was lacking in his apology? What would have satisfied you?


As Simmons said, the article was indefensible. I think there are very few apologies that could make everyone go, "Oh, okay" and then leave this alone. So for something less, maybe it would be alright.

I think there were decent things in the apology which often don't happen. The Grantland writers could easily have written those complaining off, defending the piece to the ground. It's great Simmons acknowledged wrongdoing, and that should be the norm.
(There are other problems people have been pointing out in some of the
articles that have been linked through, and I don't feel like aggregating.)

Despite all that, this apology is simply not enough. It is inadequate. What happened was outrageous, so people are outraged. In addition, because there is some coverage to this story, it is a good time to point out the problems with reporting on trans people in the media - which is the biggest reason this debacle is making people mad.

I'd like to see specifically what they plan to do in order to make sure this doesn't happen again. What organizations do they plan to work with? What penance are they going to do?

I'd also like to see a statement from Hannan, since he wrote the piece and he did the threatening of outing, as well as outing Dr. V to her investors - which he didn't need to do at all. A lot of trans people do live in fear of being outed, so I think that specifically needs to be apologized for by the person who did it. So while he is not ultimately responsible for the article being published, he is responsible for his own personal conduct with the subject of the piece.

I've heard that Hannan has been tweeting some things in regards to this situation that are not okay. Can't find the tweets themselves, however. It would be good to hear from him on the matter to get on record exactly what he's got to say.


I'm also going to reiterate a big problem that happens in reporting: When trans people die, articles and newscasts that are made about them are usually atrocious. If a trans person is an innocent murder victim, they are still disrespected and are written about as if they were the criminal. Pronouns are not correctly used, and the names the trans person went by are often put in "scare quotes" and are often only used once - to be replaced by the legal or former name that the trans person did not identify with and probably detested. Those who murdered the trans person tend not to be as interesting to the writers and reporters, so they are downplayed, or they are pitied.

Disrespecting dead trans people is hardly the only problem with the current representation of trans people in the media, but it is a big one. Trans people are murdered a lot, so a disproportionate number of articles on trans people are about that. It is terrible by itself that so many trans people die. The disrespectful reporting on top of that is just galling - because while everyone would just like to mourn the loss, they now have to deal with rage at yet another in a long line of indignities. And if they write to the newspapers, they often either won't hear back, or if they do, the paper doesn't care. Nothing will be done.

This article is sitting on that heap of other articles. The author may not have killed Dr. V, but he did the same thing as all those other reporters and writers, and so trans people and their allies are angry at him.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hes back and he has friends and hes fucking singing.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The coffee shop creeper?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. I brought it up to the baristo who was completely pissed. Apparently they don't even order anything, just come in to loiter (he thinks tthey're walking in from the nearby mission)

I got the impression shit is gunna get done about it, though, so yay for supportve coffee shop employees.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i certainly hope so - for one thing, the singing should certainly increase the number of people who find him annoying.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So fuck you McDonalds . . . Adventure Time is Boys only and Sock Monkeys are girls only? Fuck you McDonalds, fuck you.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's stupid. I thought both those things were equally popular among boys and girls.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
This wasn't something the writer said on the fly in a moment of fleeting social interaction. This was an article whose research took time - Time in which this writer could have googled information about trans people. He doesn't live in a tiny bubble without internet access. Neither do those supervising him

He did something wrong and the internet is calling him out for it. His apology has been inadequate, so people are still angry. If I recall, though, you think trans people shouldn't complain about ignorance because no reasonable cis person can be expected to know anything regarding those who are not trans.


You're confusing the apology with the explanation. You're also confusing Hannan with Simmons.

Simmons explains that he was ignorant and then apologizes for being ignorant. That is literally the only thing he can do. He's not saying that he was ignorant and therefore not to blame for all this shit, he says he was ignorant and that he was mistaken and thus is to blame. Ignorance is a bad thing, he fully admits it. What else can he say?

And my point about ignorance was that the fundamental problem of real ignorance is that you don't know you're ignorant and so you make research fails. He's not saying "oh well yeah we failed to research, our bad", he saying "we not only failed to research, we were so dumb that we didn't think we needed to research which is worse."
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:

I'd like to see specifically what they plan to do in order to make sure this doesn't happen again. What organizations do they plan to work with? What penance are they going to do?

That doesn't strike me as part of an apology. Apologising for and explaining what you plan to do to make up for it are different things. I imagine they're thinking about that right now.

Quote:
I'd also like to see a statement from Hannan, since he wrote the piece and he did the threatening of outing, as well as outing Dr. V to her investors - which he didn't need to do at all. A lot of trans people do live in fear of being outed, so I think that specifically needs to be apologized for by the person who did it. So while he is not ultimately responsible for the article being published, he is responsible for his own personal conduct with the subject of the piece.


It was mentioned in the piece by Kahrl that she is advising Hannan on the piece he wants to put out on this. I figure we'll see it one of these days.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
That's stupid. I thought both those things were equally popular among boys and girls.

Exactly Mad
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

I'd like to see specifically what they plan to do in order to make sure this doesn't happen again. What organizations do they plan to work with? What penance are they going to do?

That doesn't strike me as part of an apology. Apologising for and explaining what you plan to do to make up for it are different things. I imagine they're thinking about that right now.


I've seen and made apologies where that was done. A basic version is, "I am sorry. Here is what I meant to do, and here is my understanding of how I failed at doing that. To show that I am sincere and this is not just for show, here is how I will make sure this mistake does not happen in the future."

That kind of apology is often issued in customer service. Something like, "I'm sorry that you're having this terrible experience and we want to make this right. So to do that, we are going to ______. We hope that you will continue to be our customer." The most frequent place I encounter this is Dominoes, because my roommate never hesitates to say when he's disappointed. They send around coupons with a note that basically says, "Wow, we screwed up! Thanks for letting us know, and here is something to make up for it."

Out in meatspace, when I have to make an apology, this is how I handle them. It works well when I'm able to communicate.

If it's a boundary related thing, then, "I'm sorry I stepped over your boundary and/or didn't realize that the boundary existed. So that we don't have any future problems, let's work out how we'll handle this in the future."

There's no reason they can't offer that. Since this is one of the things I'd like to see and I was asked what I thought would improve the apology, that's what I offered.


Snorri wrote:

It was mentioned in the piece by Kahrl that she is advising Hannan on the piece he wants to put out on this. I figure we'll see it one of these days.


I missed that. I'll be glad to see it when it's done.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Yup. I brought it up to the baristo who was completely pissed. Apparently they don't even order anything, just come in to loiter (he thinks tthey're walking in from the nearby mission)

I got the impression shit is gunna get done about it, though, so yay for supportve coffee shop employees.


Hurray! Here's hoping Jerk McCreeper will leave this dimensional plane.

Darqcyde wrote:
So fuck you McDonalds . . . Adventure Time is Boys only and Sock Monkeys are girls only? Fuck you McDonalds, fuck you.


I hate it when they do gendered Happy Meals in general. My nearest McD's stopped doing that and I like them for that. It was for budget cuts only but I don't care.
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Jinx



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
That's stupid. I thought both those things were equally popular among boys and girls.

Exactly :x


You've all probably seen this, but . . . .

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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you can ask the child, "Which toy do you want?" That's much simpler.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, this is a great idea, and I think it's what Grantland should do: Report on gender diversity in sports - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/julie-mencher/how-grantland-can-get-out_b_4656057.html

I think that would make a real difference, and would make up for what happened.
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