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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It just shocks the fuck out of me, because, knowing people with various disorders, there are a lot of them that don't lend themselves to mass violence. And that the response of people who do think all (white) shooters are mentally ill is not "Let's bolster mental health care in the USA and make sure everyone has it," but to simply blame and stigmatize the mentally ill.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. There's also the creepy trend that it's only white dudes that get the 'mentally ill one-off' exception. If he'd been a man of color you know as well as I do that there'd be a whole host of people blaming whatever culture he looked like he came from. He looks like he came from our culture though (because he did). Nobody's willing to blame our culture, though, god no, that would involve accepting part of the blame and we can't have that.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he were black, they'd say he hated white people, and would talk about how poc men are out to steal our white wimmins, and all black men are dangerous sexual predators.

If he were arabic, they'd be all BENGHAZI BENGHAZI AL QUAIDA HITLER HUSSEIN OBAMA.

I don't know what the going stereotype is for asian, hispanic or Native American mass murderers.
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Midnight Tea



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
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Location: In the Haunted Lands

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
It just shocks the fuck out of me, because, knowing people with various disorders, there are a lot of them that don't lend themselves to mass violence. And that the response of people who do think all (white) shooters are mentally ill is not "Let's bolster mental health care in the USA and make sure everyone has it," but to simply blame and stigmatize the mentally ill.

You said it better than I could.

And that's saying something given how wordy I can be on the Sinfest forums.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My twittering has helped me become more concise with words.


someone wrote this about the #yesallwomen tag that has been taking over Twitter. (Note: Stuff about public sexual assault)

https://medium.com/human-parts/3986995f70c3
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Midnight Tea



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
My twittering has helped me become more concise with words.


someone wrote this about the #yesallwomen tag that has been taking over Twitter. (Note: Stuff about public sexual assault)

https://medium.com/human-parts/3986995f70c3

I don't know what's worse. The fact that some part of me doesn't want to believe things are that bad, or the fact that I'm almost absolutely certain it's even more widespread than it looks due to unreported incidents and a culture of victim shaming?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thing about the shooting (and the shooter) that i am constantly wanting to confront is a strange dichotomy.

the first half of it is people who are essentially writing this off as an issue of mental illness that you can't blame a group like MRA's or social issues like patriarchy for

the second half is saying things like that even just calling him mentally ill is a distraction and a derailment from the real issues and that this shooting is The Norm because violence against women is how the world works because of sexism.

both sides have their own individually special way of being wrong. The former group has to recognize that this person did not become insanely virulently misogynistic and filled with loathing over deficiencies and senses of unfilled 'entitlement' 'to' women in some sort of vacuum free of social conditioning; it's absofuckinglutely about culture, our VERY sexist culture, and the shitty hate group that is MRA's and PUA's and other terrible shitheads in that vein.

the second side is also wrong. you watch his videos, you read his manifesto, even if we had no knowledge whatsoever about his history of mental illness, it's painfully obvious that this dude is fucking nuts and it will be the common sense conclusion of nearly everyone who reads or watches it. Dude was fuckoff insane. You can't call him the norm; he's explicitly a rare and extreme aberration. and yes I know i'm not carrying around a doctorate in psychology but Fuckoff Insane isn't a clinical diagnosis, but rather an obvious overarching one pertaining primarily to that he's Fuckoff Insane, so let's not be ungodly pedantic and pretend otherwise.

Instead, the interplay is the most important. The mental illness creates a vulnerability to hateful attitudes, prejudices, and a culture that feeds his hate and helps him validate his projection of fault towards women. this is a society, an entire culture, which has been warped by patriarchal attitudes and creates a deep dissatisfaction by men who have been trained to feel that they are 'owed' a woman. that they are owed female attention. This is an issue BOTH of mental illness AND of patriarchy. It is ALSO an issue of how insane this country is about guns. it is ALSO an issue of how shitty our system of medical intervention and support is for people with obvious mental issues. How many guns did he purchase legally even with a history of very concerning diagnosis and various welfare checks on his person by police?
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the police were called in by his parents (who said he was crazy), and after talking with him for a while came away with the sense that he was a wonderful human being!

Quote:
The Associated Press , an attorney who represents Elliot's father, Peter Rodger. Shifman told the wire service that Elliot Rodger "was diagnosed at an earlier age of being a highly-functional Asperger Syndrome child."

Shifman said that his parents were concerned a few weeks ago after watching a few YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people." Shifman said Rodger had "multiple therapists" and a social worker was concerned enough last week that she called police.

Authorities, however, interviewed him and concluded he was a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human."


Surely, there's nothing amiss here with the issues of keeping guns out of the hands of the dangerously insane! Why, that's crazy!
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
But the police were called in by his parents (who said he was crazy), and after talking with him for a while came away with the sense that he was a wonderful human being!

Quote:
The Associated Press , an attorney who represents Elliot's father, Peter Rodger. Shifman told the wire service that Elliot Rodger "was diagnosed at an earlier age of being a highly-functional Asperger Syndrome child."

Shifman said that his parents were concerned a few weeks ago after watching a few YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people." Shifman said Rodger had "multiple therapists" and a social worker was concerned enough last week that she called police.

Authorities, however, interviewed him and concluded he was a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human."


Surely, there's nothing amiss here with the issues of keeping guns out of the hands of the dangerously insane! Why, that's crazy!


Quote:
Update at 11:30 a.m. ET. on Sunday: A Manifesto:

In our latest post this morning, we point to a 140-page autobiographical manifesto Rodger sent to police.

It's a misogynist tirade that echoes many of the statements made by his online persona. It also details a plan that sounds a lot like what happened Friday night.

At one point, he writes:

"I cannot kill every single female on earth, but I can deliver a devastating blow that will shake all of them to the core of their wicked hearts. I will attack the very girls who represent everything I hate in the female gender: The hottest sorority of UCSB."

So THAT's what a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human" is. Hmmm . . .
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some reason the idea that polite well looking young people can have many many issues still shocks people today. Have we all been so brainwashed by movies and books that villians are always 'evil looking' (read ugly).
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sociopathic personalities often have a high level of surface charm and smoothness that, in the absence of training and experience or personal knowledge, is very hard to pierce at first blush.
You'd think that the police would have enough professional experience and training to see through it, and indeed the officers sent to interview him supposedly did have that training.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't sure if this should go here, or elsewhere, and I realize it is not related to "Horrible Human Being who was certainly influenced by MRA communities to identify women as the source of all wrongs in his life" ("BUT NOT ALLLLLLLL MEN ARE KILLERS!!!!11one" )


I now have a (tiny, TINY) bit personal experience into what female cosplayers (and, probably, women in general) have to put up with. The difference, I suppose, between "Intellectually" understanding something, and emotionally understanding it.

For a camp we volunteer at, we were doing a sort of... 4-way split theme. (Pokemon, Pirates V. Ninjas, Lord of the Rings, and Doctor Who). My wife (who was also volunteering) is a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor, and... I actually look a bit like him, body structure wise, and in mannerisms (I apparently have his exact posture). So we got an outfit for the camp, I dyed my hair brown and slicked it up and back. The campers, while thrilled, were also very respectful. (A few did ask for hugs, and I gave them the allowed side-hug that male counselors are allowed to give.)

No, the "WTF" bit was the next day, when their parents came to pick them up. I dressed up as Ten again, because, hey. Why not!

Towards the end, I was talking with one of the parents (who was a fan of Doctor Who), and she reached out and ran a hand along my hair/the side of my face, commenting "Ah, but you didn't do the sideburns-"

While I semi-laugh at it now, I'm not sure I even have words to describe that level of discomfort and sheer "WTF" I was feeling.

And that was only a *single incidence*. Not something I've had to put up with over, and over, and over.

If only there were a way to bottle that emotion and go "Hey. Hey you asshole who does not think you're harassing someone. This is what it feels like."...

(I also emphasized the "tiny" insight because I not want this to be like the whole.. well "Parents grounded me. Now I know what the slaves felt like" sort of thing.)
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few reasons why people are lessen the attention on his mental illnesses.

There are a lot of different types of mental illnesses, and lumping them all together as something that causes violence is really not helpful. Mental illness does not automatically make a person violent, but reporting makes mentally ill people as a whole out to be violent monsters. This also ignores that many people are managing their illnesses (for instance, being on their meds, being in therapy) who are not going out committing mass violence - but they get caught up in the stigma when the only quality being shouted about a mass murderer is his non-specific mental illness.

It's the same kind of bias that leads to any group being painted with the same brush whenever one member of that group does something. For instance, if a black man goes on a killing spree, it's clearly because black people are violent, not because of any individual factors in his life. With Arabic people, it's because they are clearly all fanatical terrorists. With white people, it's because of other people being mean to them (IE: The killer is the victim here! Why won't everyone be nice to the white people!) or because of mental illness (As in: That person is a monster, and is therefore clearly different from all other white people.)

As far as I know, initial reporting only talked about him being autistic. Autism does not automatically turn people into mass murderers, and there are many, many autistic people who go about having peaceful lives. So while that may be an interesting tidbit about him, it does not appear to be as relevant to the murders as the reasons he had for murdering.

He made those videos and posts about how much he hates women. The media is really downplaying the misogyny and instead playing up the mental illness, as if the misogyny really had absolutely nothing to do with it. However, a lot of men have been reacting by saying, "Well, it really is women's fault for not having sex with him - that poor guy!" Lots of insisting the misogyny this guy has isn't actually a thing, didn't actually factor into his killing spree, and isn't actually a problem.

Many people would like to have the misogyny addressed, because it's a serious issue that is actually killing people. But instead, the media prefers to go on about those weird crazy whackos who kill people whose behavior can in no way be connected to the average person who happens to have problematic ideas and behavior.

Lastly, it may just be me, but it is so irritating to hear people going on about 'that violent crazy person!' with no discussion about how difficult mental healthcare is to access in the USA. There is no use in complaining about mental illness if you aren't also concerned about helping 'crazy' people get healthcare. Which is not saying that you guys here aren't concerned about that - but a lot of what people have to say about the mentally ill is basically freaking out that they exist and wanting them to either die or otherwise stop existing. No concern that these are actually people suffering who need assistance.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To go off in yet another direction:
Pakistani Woman Stoned To Death By Family Outside Courtroom
Quote:
A 25-year-old pregnant woman has been stoned to death by her relatives outside a courtroom in Lahore, Pakistan a so-called honor killing meant to punish her for marrying against her family's will.

Farzana Iqbal was preparing to testify in defense of her husband, Mohammad Iqbal, whom her father had accused of kidnapping the young woman. The father had insisted instead that she marry her cousin.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one here who noticed that the shooter was half Malaysian?
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