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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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krael



Joined: 25 Sep 2016
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
krael wrote:
Nargrakhan wrote:
I completely agree. For example the Ford Mustang has been incredibly popular with women as of late:

Mustangs hold a 36% share of sports car purchases by woman this year. The EcoBoost engine, which has four cylinders and is the most efficient option, is more popular among woman drivers than the V6 and V8 engine options. Woman buying Mustangs are also more likely to go with the drop top option than men.

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-08/what-do-women-want-this-year-a-ford-mustang

Gender doesn't mean anything. You like the Mustang, because you think it's a badass sports car and can afford it.

Having gender targeted accessories and features is insulting. Whoever thinks only women use a visor mirror, clearly haven't been driving through morning rush hour traffic. Almost everyday I see at least one guy using an electric razor, combing his hair, or fixing his tie in traffic. What's pulled down while doing this? The visor mirror. Rolling Eyes


Calm down! your rush hour example demonstrates that those visor mirrors are not actually restricted to cars reserved for one specific gender, right? The purple car is a commercial product (eddit: I mean trick or ploy), not a philosophical statement about how the world ought to be in terms of gender equality. It was produced because seat's marketing team thinks there ARE women who will like and buy this car, thus winning seat some form of market share or something. To me, this line of thinking seems hardly surprising; it seems to work with items of clothing and cheaper types of accessories just fine too.

and people that would buy a mustang over this far more efficient car are just bad people... I honestly hope that gender equality does not mean some part of the population should start to contribute MORE to the demise of the planet.


Gendered marketing is a cyclical process. It got this bad because marketers realized people will buy more if products are marketed as mens or womens. Color is part of that process. Purple and pink are the acceptable women colors. Then more people buy it, because the push to confirm that you fit in the gender binary is very strong. Then marketers push even more gendered products, and the cycle continues.

Marketers could make more money in the short run if they pandered to racial stereotypes too, but many don't. It's better for the bottomline to be future oriented, and demographics are well into the process of changing. A smarter company would save highly gendered products for older generations, and make neutral products for everyone else. Gendered bullshit is dying out, and eventually it should become a liability to continue peddling gendered products. And we can help that process along by pointing out this bullshit and complaining about it.


I see your point on the vicious circle, and in that sense I guess I can share your hope (if not optimism) on degendering marketing. Assuming we reach a degendered market, however, I can also imagine that the various genders will still have their gender-specific preferences (or presumably in the terms of marketeers "weak spots in their defenses against adds"), and I imagine these will be continued to be targeted. How do you view this? would you reckon that this would or wouldn't happen, or that it would or wouldn't be acceptable after some kind of degendered-marketing-reset for the sake of genderequality (which I realize is not something that happens or is orchestrated so clear cut of course). Would 'healthy' genderspecific marketing be able to exist then (disclaimer: not looking for an excuse on behalf of seat, just curious)
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you are still making the assumption that all the members of one gender have some level of the same interest. there are some purely biological areas in which this is true (women tend to be far more interested in products relating to menstruation and physical effects of menopause, less so about things like prostate problems). but to take something like cars - i know women who prioritize full-efficient cars, those who prefer SUVs, those who want only a small car, those who would drive nothing but a pickup truck; a few who might choose a car because it makes them look or feel sexy; many who choose one because it is the best/safest way to haul children/dogs/building material, and so on. and i imagine there are men who can be found who will chose the same car for exactly the same reason - so there is no reason to connect gender to it.

so why risk losing half your market by targeting something to just one gender, when others might be equally interested?
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krael



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
you are still making the assumption that all the members of one gender have some level of the same interest. there are some purely biological areas in which this is true (women tend to be far more interested in products relating to menstruation and physical effects of menopause, less so about things like prostate problems). but to take something like cars - i know women who prioritize full-efficient cars, those who prefer SUVs, those who want only a small car, those who would drive nothing but a pickup truck; a few who might choose a car because it makes them look or feel sexy; many who choose one because it is the best/safest way to haul children/dogs/building material, and so on. and i imagine there are men who can be found who will chose the same car for exactly the same reason - so there is no reason to connect gender to it.

so why risk losing half your market by targeting something to just one gender, when others might be equally interested?


Well yes, I DO make that assumption. I don't believe that the only differences would be practical (hardware related) like menstruation related stuff, and I DO believe that there will be biological-emotional (software) differences like some sort of male preference for explosions and a female preference for godknowswhatifnotpinkstuff, so to speak.

To immediately disclaim: I realize a hardware software distinction is difficult to make in a biochemical machine with cognitive abilities like a human, but on the other hand, the fact that the biochemical workings of the human body translate to personality somewhere along the road is exactly the reason I expect fundamental differences in in general interest between men and women.

And of course I'm talking averages here; the individual person will still be interested in whatever the hell he or she likes. But as soon as a product can be developed that's on average more interesting for either male or female public, said public will be targeted ruthlessly with everything the marketeer has available. ('Sex sells' will still hold, I bet for instance). And let's not forget that there are plenty of products made for other subgroups! You're not asking why heavymetal products are ornated with a ridiculous amount of skulls, thereby possibly alienating a much larger public and market. Creating 'groups', making the customer feel special and alienating the other 'groups' kindoff seems the whole point of marketting.


I realise it's quite possible this difference in assumption might be fundamental to our disagreement. I also bet I'm not the first one on the forums to talk about the possibility of fundamental preferences induced by biochemistry. How do you see this?
(I guess it's a discussion that transcends the gender thing; all humans 'loose something' when they start admitting their personality is protein-based Razz)
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Nargrakhan



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the expense of REALLY simplifying my view (trying to avoid typing a 50 paragraph response):

I would argue that women traditionally leaned towards particular cars, not because of gender identity, but the reality of financial status and practical needs. Women have always been paid less than men, while society has placed the burden of childcare and home keeping on women.

Let's take the Nissan 370Z NISMO for example: it's a two passenger vehicle that costs $48,000 in the US (it costs even more in Japan and Europe). It's a luxury vehicle intended for someone with a lot of disposable income and not worrying about taking the kids to school or somehow fitting a month's worth of groceries for a family of four in one trip. That's not the kind of vehicle a person would find practical if they're the primary up keeper of domestic matters... male or female. In addition, you could never afford that 370Z if you make 80% the paycheck that someone who barely makes payments at 100%.

The reason more women are now buying sports cars, pickup trucks, hummers, etc is because more women can afford them financially and socially. Women always found the sports car, the pickup truck, the hummer, etc as attractive and desirable as men. Women simply did not have the opportunities to acquire and retain them. That's now changing ever so slowly... and the rise in women buying sports cars, pickup trucks, hummers, etc is a reflection of that.

IMHO: designing cars specifically for women, is as insulting as designing cars specifically for... say... black people. I'm sure anyone could justify the logic behind it given enough time, but ultimately in the end, it boils down to forcing societal stereotypes that are prejudicial and demeaning.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly! the forces that drive women to prefer certain types of cars are not directly related to biological "femaleness"
krael wrote:
You're not asking why heavymetal products are ornated with a ridiculous amount of skulls, thereby possibly alienating a much larger public and market. Creating 'groups', making the customer feel special and alienating the other 'groups' kindoff seems the whole point of marketting.


this is the thing - heavy metal enthusiasts are united by their enthusiasm for heavy metal. they are unified by something they chose.

women (and men) like blacks or hispanics or pacific islanders are unified only by chance, if you will - the chance of a chromosome or a birthplace or a couple genes (maybe). there is no reason to assume sufficient unity that one thing will appeal to _all_ of those group members, since chance alone puts them in the same group.
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krael



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
exactly! the forces that drive women to prefer certain types of cars are not directly related to biological "femaleness"
krael wrote:
You're not asking why heavymetal products are ornated with a ridiculous amount of skulls, thereby possibly alienating a much larger public and market. Creating 'groups', making the customer feel special and alienating the other 'groups' kindoff seems the whole point of marketting.


this is the thing - heavy metal enthusiasts are united by their enthusiasm for heavy metal. they are unified by something they chose.

women (and men) like blacks or hispanics or pacific islanders are unified only by chance, if you will - the chance of a chromosome or a birthplace or a couple genes (maybe). there is no reason to assume sufficient unity that one thing will appeal to _all_ of those group members, since chance alone puts them in the same group.


See, I do NOT agree with that. people do not CHOOSE which music they like. people receive sound patterns, and their biochemistry decides for them whether they like it or not. You CAN'T suddenly decide: "you know what, I reject the fact that Metalica makes me happy, from now on, Bach is what helps me through the day." What we do or do not have affinity for is BEYOND our controll, even though afterwards there are cases where we (think we) are able to explain. Such explanations are often found in nurture, but, as I try to point out, nature has a clear impact as well.

If you say that "there is no reason to assume unity" (and I explicitly said I was talking about averages, not ALL members of groups), it is my opinion that you are ignoring an awful lot of evidence (i.e. observations) obtained from the natural world. The origin of interest and affinity is NOT some choice, it IS biochemistry and, indeed, those genes you mention.
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krael



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nargrakhan wrote:
At the expense of REALLY simplifying my view (trying to avoid typing a 50 paragraph response):

I would argue that women traditionally leaned towards particular cars, not because of gender identity, but the reality of financial status and practical needs. Women have always been paid less than men, while society has placed the burden of childcare and home keeping on women.

Let's take the Nissan 370Z NISMO for example: it's a two passenger vehicle that costs $48,000 in the US (it costs even more in Japan and Europe). It's a luxury vehicle intended for someone with a lot of disposable income and not worrying about taking the kids to school or somehow fitting a month's worth of groceries for a family of four in one trip. That's not the kind of vehicle a person would find practical if they're the primary up keeper of domestic matters... male or female. In addition, you could never afford that 370Z if you make 80% the paycheck that someone who barely makes payments at 100%.

The reason more women are now buying sports cars, pickup trucks, hummers, etc is because more women can afford them financially and socially. Women always found the sports car, the pickup truck, the hummer, etc as attractive and desirable as men. Women simply did not have the opportunities to acquire and retain them. That's now changing ever so slowly... and the rise in women buying sports cars, pickup trucks, hummers, etc is a reflection of that.

IMHO: designing cars specifically for women, is as insulting as designing cars specifically for... say... black people. I'm sure anyone could justify the logic behind it given enough time, but ultimately in the end, it boils down to forcing societal stereotypes that are prejudicial and demeaning.


I like your socioeconomic analysis; I think you might very well be right that this has been a force in shaping women-targeted cars. I also see your point that there might be a hysteresis effect where such products start enforcing stereotypes, even though the products have a practical reason for existing as well (I don't think you are arguing that affordable cars with 4+ seats should NOT be available).

So as you (and others) explained, I can see how the product may be harmful to gender equality in the current state of affairs.

I disagree with the conclusion that the product has to be taken as an insult (other than in the regular way that commercials insult our intelligence). A seller of cars wants to sell cars, and he (stereotype carsellers are men) does so by addressing his target audience as directly as possible. If he observes that, in the world, many women appear to be in need of an affordable kid-displacer, he would be stupid to ignore the fact. The options available to car sellers are product of the status quo as much as the options available to women.

Perhaps some disappointment over the fact that the car seller's policies do not revolve around gender equality primarily is in order, but calling it an insult is not appropriate and is actually harmful by leading to polarization.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Healthy gender-specific marketing:

1. Learn whar genders there are
2. Do extensive research to figure out what needs those genders hzve as a group that aren't being met
3. In a respectful way, present the solutions your company has come up with to those problems.

Healthy gender-specific marketing would look nothing like what we have now, because current gender-specific marketing is both based on stereotypes, and driving the market to be ever more hyper-gendered. It's a failure that I believe is already leading to a crash.

See also: Sexy Halloween costumes veered into irony territory awhile ago, and better representation in media is now presenting a wider variety of options. That's not to say sexy costumes won't still sell, but the unmet need of non-sexy women's costumes is now starting to be met. Providing for niche markets is also getting less expensive and easier, hence there are a few companies now that specifically offer lines of non-sexy costumes.

As for me, I look forward to the day I can walk into a store and find men's clothes in brightly colored satins and other shiny, sparkly type men's clothes.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....your genes determine your musical tastes? seriously? and everyone is just helpless in the face of what they are exposed to?


so why is it that the older generation always hates the younger generation's music, even though they are the source of the younger generation's genes?

and how can it be that people's taste is music can change over the course of their lives?
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krael



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
....your genes determine your musical tastes? seriously? and everyone is just helpless in the face of what they are exposed to?


so why is it that the older generation always hates the younger generation's music, even though they are the source of the younger generation's genes?

and how can it be that people's taste is music can change over the course of their lives?


I think I clearly tried to convey that I believe our biochemistry is at fault; so not necessarily only our genome, but more our proteome (enzymes, hormones, other proteins); which I guess is ultimately derived fromm the genome, but I bet more stuff comes into play (we are learning systems after all).

While I realize the process is complex, and that 'habit' and 'selective exposure determining your options for liking something' come into it, those forces are beyond your controll as much as your "affinity for a certain music". The fact that you can point out regularly returning patterns in the history music behaviour is NOT indicative of our controll over our tastes; it would seem to me. Smile

How do YOU view your CHOICE to like your favourite music? surely that wasn't an active process?
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krael, most well-known facts about gender preferences are total bullshit, reinforced by hopeful bad science and a staunch desire to keep women down. There are very few actual meaningful differences between "men" and "women" and none of them are relevant to cars. In fact, none of them are relevant to people. And I can assure you, there is no "I really like 'splosions"-gene on the y-chromosome.

krael wrote:
How do YOU view your CHOICE to like your favourite music? surely that wasn't an active process?

It certainly is.
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krael



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realise this bio-thing is hopelessly spinning out of topic, so sorry for that Razz. @ stripeypants: good point; if some genderinduced differences in interest remain, nomatter the (biological) mechanism at the basis, the current approach of seat is still not tasteful or right.

Taemon wrote:
Krael, most well-known facts about gender preferences are total bullshit, reinforced by hopeful bad science and a staunch desire to keep women down. There are very few actual meaningful differences between "men" and "women" and none of them are relevant to cars. In fact, none of them are relevant to people. And I can assure you, there is no "I really like 'splosions"-gene on the y-chromosome.

krael wrote:
How do YOU view your CHOICE to like your favourite music? surely that wasn't an active process?

It certainly is.


wel yes and no. relating some specific hobby to a specific gene is obviously ridiculous (and also largely scientifically unobtainable; we can't handle the data, nor validate it with such a ridiculous amount of experiments). Obviously I'm not arguing that blue is a genetically proven masculine collour (my wife informs me that, not too long ago, the collours for baby boys and girls were reversed, in fact).

that said, it is noticable on a daily basis that your behavior depends on your blood sugar level, let alone all the stuff like caffeine, dopamine and (dangerous to bring up I guess) all types of hormones. From a more general and abstract point of view, I think we have plenty of scientific indications that we are just machines (in plenty of parts of the world you are still allowed to disagree with that, btw), so in my opinion it's not really farfetched or surprising to think that personality emerges from that machine. (I'm genuinely surprised by your answer to the music question, but I'll remember it.)

please try not to bog down in the specific examples. on a general level: why would you be surprised that male and female biochemical machines would be different not only in terms of physical output, but also mental output? Note: I am not claiming ANYTHING on what those difference would be, nor am I trying to turn this into a pseudoscientific justification for the gender status quo. I just believe that claiming that there can be no differences whatsoever will NOT lead to the best world possible (gender related or otherwise).
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krael wrote:
mouse wrote:
....your genes determine your musical tastes? seriously? and everyone is just helpless in the face of what they are exposed to?


so why is it that the older generation always hates the younger generation's music, even though they are the source of the younger generation's genes?

and how can it be that people's taste is music can change over the course of their lives?


I think I clearly tried to convey that I believe our biochemistry is at fault; so not necessarily only our genome, but more our proteome (enzymes, hormones, other proteins); which I guess is ultimately derived fromm the genome, but I bet more stuff comes into play (we are learning systems after all).

While I realize the process is complex, and that 'habit' and 'selective exposure determining your options for liking something' come into it, those forces are beyond your controll as much as your "affinity for a certain music". The fact that you can point out regularly returning patterns in the history music behaviour is NOT indicative of our controll over our tastes; it would seem to me. Smile

How do YOU view your CHOICE to like your favourite music? surely that wasn't an active process?


Do you understand that the gender dichotomy (male/female) is not real?
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krael, you obviously don't know anything about sex and gender. Everything you're trying to build on top of your assumptions are destined to collapse.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krael wrote:
that said, it is noticable on a daily basis that your behavior depends on your blood sugar level, let alone all the stuff like caffeine, dopamine and (dangerous to bring up I guess) all types of hormones. From a more general and abstract point of view, I think we have plenty of scientific indications that we are just machines (in plenty of parts of the world you are still allowed to disagree with that, btw), so in my opinion it's not really farfetched or surprising to think that personality emerges from that machine.

Of course, but that makes no difference.

krael wrote:
(I'm genuinely surprised by your answer to the music question, but I'll remember it.)

I could talk about that for hours but that's way off-topic.
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