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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but is he currently abusing women, or is this behavior that happened in the past, but that he has discontinued?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't know, don't care, would not be particularly receptive to an apology if he even bothered to try. odds are pretty high he's completely oblivious and has forgotten all about it.

it's not my job to care about his redemption and i emphatically do not.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse, I do not understand where you are coming from. Let me rephrase the situation in another crime, say, er, arson. We have a bunch of people here who stand accused of arson. Some merely stuffed a burning newspaper through the letterbox in your front door that one time they were drunk, others repeatedly burned down someone's house.

Here we have a guy who set fire to a few cars and burned down someone's garage, like, twenty years ago. He admits to it and he is a reasonable and compelling voice for the community of arson victims. So why not forgive him and let him do his thing?

Does that sound stupid to you? It sounds stupid to me. I do not think Franken is innocent; several people have come out to accuse him. I don't care if he admits to it or not; it doesn't lessen the crime. It doesn't matter how long ago that guy sent the dickpic; Samsally still had to buy a new car.

mouse wrote:
i just want an idea of the way forward. i mean, i am _related_ to men, i have male friends, i don't want to just drop them from the human race or hold them to being perfect (i certainly am not). and i'm old enough to know that standards really have changed (if you don't believe that, try watching some old shows on MeTV or similar) - is it fair condemn someone for not being ahead of their time?

You know, house fires were really common back then. So what if someone helped it along a few times? They didn't realise it was a bad thing to do.

Does that sound stupid to you? Why are you so ready to forgive and forget? I don't care what happens to them. If they find a way to make it right, kudos. Until then, they stay out of the spotlights.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Here we have a guy who set fire to a few cars and burned down someone's garage, like, twenty years ago. He admits to it and he is a reasonable and compelling voice for the community of arson victims. So why not forgive him and let him do his thing?

Does that sound stupid to you?

That actually does not sound stupid to me at all.

He should still absolutely step down from his office, because symbols are important for making culture work. He should still absolutely be prosecuted for anything prosecutable, because laws are important for making society work. But I don't think there's anything profitable in vilifying him more than that.

Taemon wrote:
You know, house fires were really common back then. So what if someone helped it along a few times? They didn't realise it was a bad thing to do.

If I had been born and raised in 1920's Germany, it is absolutely possible that I would have been a concentration camp guard during WWII. I mean there is nothing inherently moral about me that would've made me break out of my lifelong conditioning, stand up and denounce my family, friends & culture as evil. We all have the potential to be monsters.

I am fortunate that I was instead raised in middle America in the 1980s. The me I am now would not be a concentration camp guard. My lifelong conditioning would instead make me choose to stand up and denounce such evil, even at the cost of being an outcast or martyr.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Ayers was a terrorist in his younger days. Never served any time for it. The only people who died were some of his fellow terrorists when one of their plans backfired. However, the still created a lot of property damage and fear.
He moved on to become an academic and a more lawful political activist that has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

Should every positive he's ever done, or may have yet to do, be written off? Some people are more than ready to feel that way, and even moreso extend their disdain to the people even tangentially related to him in his post-terrorist career as an educator and community activist... people like Barack Obama.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes? He killed people and caused damage and social unrest. Did he serve time, did he pay a hefty fine? If not, how can we simply move past this because he also did good stuff? Let him do good stuff in private.

What bothers me so much is the immediate forgiveness of men assaulting women. If you commit a crime, you have to make up for it. It doesn't matter how long ago it is. It doesn't matter whether you'd have been a concentration camp guard. Most men make it through life without abusing women; it's not some saintly skill that a few precious males possess.

You're saying you need Franken because he does good? Well, elect someone else who does good. And who will not have their way with second-hand citi- women because maybe you shouldn't be willing to pay that price anymore.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes?

Crimes cannot be "paid for" by inflicting harm on the criminal. Retribuition in no way undoes the harm they have caused their victims. The ethical justification for the tortures of imprisonment is to protect other people from further crimes the criminal was likely to have committed.

Taemon wrote:
If not, how can we simply move past this because he also did good stuff?

We don't move past it because of the good stuff. Bad deeds cannot be "paid for" by good deeds. In fact, we don't have to move past it at all. We can have complex conceptions of who people are that includes them being bad and good at the same time.

Taemon wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you'd have been a concentration camp guard. Most men make it through life without abusing women; it's not some saintly skill that a few precious males possess.

Most men being raised right now will make it through life without abusing women. I don't know if that's true about most men raised 50 years ago. It absolutely isn't true about most men throughout all of history. Culture improves over time.

Even just a couple of decades ago, kids literally did not know what rape was. I mean, they knew not to rape rape. Attacking someone on the street and dragging them into an alley to have your way with them was obviously against the rules. But driving your date to a remote area and intimidating them into sex? That wasn't rape. That reluctance was just for show. They knew what they were getting into. Don't you watch movies?

We were absolutely taught to abuse women when I was a kid. The only reasons I "made it through" without doing so were social anxiety and circumstance. And when I learned better as an adult, it was because I absorbed new rules from a healthier culture, replacing old conditioning with new. I didn't break free using my own personal moral strength.

It matters very much whether I'd have been a concentration camp guard. It means my moral high ground is very much circumstantial, and I need to be damn careful to keep that in mind when I am judging others.
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Imry



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm from Canada so I'm a bit removed from American politics. Sorry if I get something wrong.
Taemon wrote:
What bothers me so much is the immediate forgiveness of men assaulting women. If you commit a crime, you have to make up for it. It doesn't matter how long ago it is.
It feels like there's a lot of binary thinking about this: either "X is a creep and deserves to be excommunicated" or "X is a saint and nothing needs to be done". It's really more complicated than that. Yes there's people like Roy Moore who are beyond the pale, and there's Garrison Keillor who has one incident of groping a woman. mouse posted earlier about how him losing his job was an overreaction and I hope more people agree with this. I'd prefer to see him issue a public apology and... I dunno, donate to a women's charity? Use his star power to promote healthy consent? Something to show that he knows that what he did was serious.

I honestly don't know how I feel about Franken, but besides all the "excommunicate him!" talk I know a few people who feel like Franken shouldn't have lost his job, but he should atone for it in other ways. Him continuing to sit on the senate and take a strong role on women's rights might be one way.
Sojobo wrote:
Most men being raised right now will make it through life without abusing women. I don't know if that's true about most men raised 50 years ago. It absolutely isn't true about most men throughout all of history. Culture improves over time.
I've gotten way too many unsolicited dick pics to believe that things are as positive as you make it sound.

What you've written... it feels like how people were saying that racism was over (like, the KKK-ish "let's make our country a white ethnostate" racism) because it was dying with the old generation, but then came the alt-right bringing it back into fashion with young people making up a large part of it. One response was that racism won't wither and die by itself - we have to actively kill it. The same applies to rape culture.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes?

Crimes cannot be "paid for" by inflicting harm on the criminal. Retribuition in no way undoes the harm they have caused their victims. The ethical justification for the tortures of imprisonment is to protect other people from further crimes the criminal was likely to have committed.

You mean, "no"?

Look, I think punishment is stupid. Inflicting pain on someone isn't going to make them a better person. But they have to pay - they have to make things up to the victim somehow. I'm in great favour of fines for that purpose. And why isn't there mandatory therapy for every criminal? If you burn down someone's house, you have to pay them. If you sexually attack someone, you have to pay them. And then get better. We do not just let them walk away.

Sojobo wrote:
Taemon wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you'd have been a concentration camp guard. Most men make it through life without abusing women; it's not some saintly skill that a few precious males possess.

Most men being raised right now will make it through life without abusing women. I don't know if that's true about most men raised 50 years ago. It absolutely isn't true about most men throughout all of history. Culture improves over time.

Oh, FFS. We're talking twenty, thirty years ago, not 1251 in Burnthewitch, Nosoul. I'm 47. I knew many, many men who made it through life without sexually abusing women. There is heightened consciousness now about the fact that women are people too and that sexism is highly ingrained in society but masturbating in front of someone/riding up against them/feeling up a 14 year old hasn't been considered fit for polite company in 1980 either. Those douchebags full well knew what they were doing.

Sojobo wrote:
It matters very much whether I'd have been a concentration camp guard. It means my moral high ground is very much circumstantial, and I need to be damn careful to keep that in mind when I am judging others.

So we shouldn't try concentration camp guards, is that what you're saying? I burned down your house 40 years ago but that's okay, we're not talking about it anymore?

Look, I'm a psychologist, I know all the prison and white coat-experiments. And I haven't believed in free will since 1991. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be consequences!
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imry wrote:
I'm from Canada so I'm a bit removed from American politics. Sorry if I get something wrong.

Eh. I'm Dutch ;-)

Imry wrote:
I honestly don't know how I feel about Franken, but besides all the "excommunicate him!" talk I know a few people who feel like Franken shouldn't have lost his job, but he should atone for it in other ways. Him continuing to sit on the senate and take a strong role on women's rights might be one way.

I would be more convinced that women's rights were on people's mind if they put someone better on that job. Someone who hasn't violated women's rights eight times and counting.

Maybe even a woman.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

too many things to comment on individually, so i will try to address them in general:

re: the repentant arsonist. or any other repentant person: the former gang-member who is now trying to keep kids from joining gangs, the former hacker who is now trying to educate people about computer security - what would _you_ do with them? do we get to listen to them and make use of their message only if they have been punished? but what constitutes adequate punishment? that, in part, was my question - what does it take to be accepted as having made a real change? it seems to you, it is not only admission of wrong, but being punished for that wrong. what if it's something that's not legally punishable? a disturbing amount of sexual harassment turns out not to actually be illegal. so what do you do about the guy who has been telling sexist jokes for years (deplorable, but not illegal), who now realizes that that was a stupid and awful thing to do, and is not only not telling those jokes anymore, but trying to get other guys to stop as well? exclude him, because he hasn't faced punishment?

there is also the question of proportionality. is someone who burns down a house, killing several people, the same as a person "who set fire to a few cars and burned down someone's garage" and the same as a kid playing with matches who starts a fire in his backyard? because if you treat the kid playing with matches the same as the murderer....well, you are the psychologist - do you lock that kid away and throw away the key, or do you try to change him so he understands that, entrancing as fire might be, it's really dangerous and setting fires can be a really bad thing? and if an admitted arsonist is the one who can really get through to that kid, do you turn him away specifically because he is perhaps the person best able to understand what the kid is thinking? or is your real belief that no change is possible? which means there is no point in even talking to men about respecting women; the ones who don't are irredeemable, right from the first time he teases a girl in grade school. so what happens to that kid?

i don't believe i said 'forgive and forget'. some things you can't forget, for everyone's safety. and i don't know what you mean by "forgive" - is it some christian "love the sinner" thing? i don't expect anyone to love everyone, and i certainly understand continuing to have negative feelings about some who hurt you. i said, i wanted to know the way forward. because, as i also said (somewhere), these people exist, and they are going to continue to exist. i'm just trying to figure out how we live with them, or they with us. so what do we do with them? what is the future for all these men? i figure weinstein's future should be in prison; trump's should be impeachment and (at minimum) a mega-huge payment to women like the one he practically got into a wrestling match with on a plane, and prison as well if any of the rape accusations can be proved. but what about someone like franken (who, by the way, has in fact taken a strong role in women's rights as a senator). and what about the jerks, the misogynists, the entitled males that all of us know? the ones who are obnoxious, and hurtful, and doing harm, but who are not actually criminals? is it pointless to try to change them? do we make it pointless to them to try to change, because they will always be treated as if they were still offending? i guess the solution that would make you happy is if they just disappeared, but that's not likely to happen, and despite jeff session's best efforts, we are unlikely to have enough prisons to hold them all.

so what do we do?
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imry wrote:
I've gotten way too many unsolicited dick pics to believe that things are as positive as you make it sound.

Taemon stated that most men make it through life without abusing women. I was skeptical about that, taking the more negative view that it will only be true going forward, in the generation that is being raised right now.

Maybe I wasn't skeptical enough? Do you really believe that most men being raised right now will abuse women?

Why focus on my positivity, instead of Taemon's even more positive declaration?

Imry wrote:
What you've written... it feels like how people were saying that racism was over

So... my statement, that we have finally progressed to a point where, going forward, fewer than half of men will abuse women, sounds to you like I am saying that sexism is over? I am not sure what has gone wrong, but I think you have misread my post.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
You mean, "no"?

No. The question is ill-formed. It cannot be answered with "yes" or "no".

Taemon wrote:
Look, I think punishment is stupid. Inflicting pain on someone isn't going to make them a better person. But they have to pay - they have to make things up to the victim somehow. I'm in great favour of fines for that purpose. And why isn't there mandatory therapy for every criminal? If you burn down someone's house, you have to pay them. If you sexually attack someone, you have to pay them. And then get better. We do not just let them walk away.

Bad deeds cannot be "paid for" by good deeds. No fine will ever "make up for" burning down someone's house. No fine will ever "make up for" sexually assaulting someone. No positive work Franken does will ever "make it up" to his victims.

If your position were true, and we chose some fine appropriate for sexual assault, your sense of justice would be satisfied with Franken paying those fines for the assaults he committed, and he and his victims could each go on their merry way.

But your sense of justice would not be satisfied. You know that a cash payment wouldn't really "make it up" to the victims, because that's not what it is for. You are saying you don't approve of retributive justice, but your construction about "paying for" crimes is exactly that.

(I am 100% behind manditory therapy for every criminal. Not seeing how it's germane, though.)

Taemon wrote:
Oh, FFS. We're talking twenty, thirty years ago, not 1251 in Burnthewitch, Nosoul. I'm 47. I knew many, many men who made it through life without sexually abusing women. There is heightened consciousness now about the fact that women are people too and that sexism is highly ingrained in society but masturbating in front of someone/riding up against them/feeling up a 14 year old hasn't been considered fit for polite company in 1980 either. Those douchebags full well knew what they were doing.

Some of the many, many men you reference have not actually made it through life without sexually abusing women. Some of them have forcibly kissed women. Some of them have groped women they didn't know. If your "many"s are big enough, some of them have indeed felt up a 14 year old. They are just better at hiding it than you are at discovering it.

... Although it's probably inaccurate to call it "hiding". There doesn't have to be much intent to it. They've grown and matured and are almost completely different people than they were in their high school / college days. Why drag themselves over the coals by bringing that stuff up now?

Taemon wrote:
So we shouldn't try concentration camp guards, is that what you're saying?

...? Of course we should try them. They're configured to literally torture people to death. But we need to do it because it isn't safe to leave them mixed in the with rest of society, not because they've given us enough excuse to get our rocks off on torturing them back.

Taemon wrote:
I burned down your house 40 years ago but that's okay, we're not talking about it anymore?

Yes! If you burned my house down 40 years ago, and haven't burned anyone's house down since, then you're not dangerous. We've actually got very strong evidence that whatever provoked you back then was very situational. I do not want to imprison you.

(also, imprisoning you would in no way "make up for" you burning down my house)

Taemon wrote:
Look, I'm a psychologist, I know all the prison and white coat-experiments. And I haven't believed in free will since 1991. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be consequences!

It does mean there shouldn't be retributive consequences.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, this is from cracked, but i think it backs up the point sojobo is trying to make: how men are trained to think sexual assault is no big deal (warning: it's likely to spoil the way you view a lot of harrison ford movies)

in the past-more-recent-than-1251, boys are being given a lot of examples of "how to treat women" that are pretty toxic. true, many of them manage to grow up not to be han solo (no matter how much they want to) - but perhaps you can understand why a lot of them think it's no big deal to steal a kiss (aka forcing a woman into a sexual act not of her choosing)? and remember this is a _continuum_ of bad acts - not everyone is being accused of public masturbation and/or raping 14 year olds. (really, what is it about masturbating in front of people? how does anyone even think that's going to be attractive?)
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
And I haven't believed in free will since 1991.


ok, i missed this. so you have already answered me: if there is no free will, there can be no change. and yet, somehow, we are eternally guilty of actions which we were fundamentally unable to chose.

i guess we have fundamentally different world-views. at the moment, not seeing any way to make a meaningful connection.
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