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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Sojobo



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
ok, this is from cracked, but i think it backs up the point sojobo is trying to make: how men are trained to think sexual assault is no big deal

I don't remember reading that, but plainly I have, and it left quite an impression. My comments are basically plagiarizing it left and right. What a weird sensation.

mouse wrote:
if there is no free will, there can be no change. and yet, somehow, we are eternally guilty of actions which we were fundamentally unable to chose.

I think Taemon agrees that the lack of free will makes retributive justice wrong, but doesn't quite agree that the desire to make someone pay for what they've done is retributive.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, if you don't believe in free will, then any sort of punishment is illogical. i would compare it to punishing a cat for catching mice, but even a cat can decide whether or not she's up for chasing mice. maybe punishing a plant for growing towards the light? if it does what it is destined to do and can do no other, what is the point of punishment? how is it fair, if you are punishing someone for something they can't control?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Did this Bill Ayers pay for his crimes? He killed people and caused damage and social unrest. Did he serve time, did he pay a hefty fine? If not, how can we simply move past this because he also did good stuff? Let him do good stuff in private.

Before you respond, you may want to take a second and re-read.
1) He didn't kill anybody.

2) No, he didn't serve time. Because when the Federal Bureau of Investigations was surveillng him and co-conspirators, they broke all kinds of laws, violated civil rights, and ignored due process. When it became apparent just how thoroughly the FBI of the time worked outside of or against the law to build its case, the charges were rightly dropped. Perpetrators have rights too.

3) He's never held any kind of office. Everything he did was "in private."

Pretty much none of the things he actually accomplished that made a positive impact could have been done from behind bars, for various reasons. Felony convictions afterwards would have prevented him from finding work or having any credibility at all. He would also have lost the right to participate in the civic process through the ballotbox as well.

Quote:
If you commit a crime, you have to make up for it.

Would society really have been served better if he was now an ex-con, with all the disenfranchisement and social impotence that brings in America?

Quote:
What bothers me so much is the immediate forgiveness of men assaulting women.

I don't think anyone here is arguing for that, least of all mouse.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I can't answer all that so on to the main point:

mouse wrote:
Taemon wrote:
And I haven't believed in free will since 1991.


ok, i missed this. so you have already answered me: if there is no free will, there can be no change. and yet, somehow, we are eternally guilty of actions which we were fundamentally unable to chose.

i guess we have fundamentally different world-views. at the moment, not seeing any way to make a meaningful connection.


Everything we do, all decisions we make, it's all the result of a huge matrix made up of everything we've been through, genetics, circumstances, the weather, the way our brain is wired, whether or not we're hungry, the proximity of that one nasty colleague and a million other things. In my view, free will means that in exactly the same situation, you could choose to do something different. I do not think that is possible; you can't help being you.

This matrix shifts and shapes while we go through life. Of course there can be change. You get a new job, you learn new skills, your worldview changes because you gain new insights, you develop a nasty chronic condition which makes you grumpy, et cetera.

Actions have consequences and that is one thread in the matrix. I do not believe in punishment; I believe in consequences. Mainly, I believe in making it right. That's why I'm talking about fines, which should of course be paid to the victim. (I mentioned "doing time" before but that was stupid and I take it back. A prison without therapy is useless cruelty.)

The former gang-member who is now trying to keep kids from joining gangs? Splendid! This is a perfect example of someone trying to make it right. A serial sexual assaulter who never tried to make up for it or even acknowledge the assault until that time when there was no other option? He's got to go. He needs to make it right.

I'm keeping it at this for now; it's a complicated discussion with lots of voices. If someone wants a specific answer to anything else they've said, just ask.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:

The former gang-member who is now trying to keep kids from joining gangs? Splendid! This is a perfect example of someone trying to make it right. A serial sexual assaulter who never tried to make up for it or even acknowledge the assault until that time when there was no other option? He's got to go. He needs to make it right.


so where does that put someone like franken, who may not have acknowledged the problem before it came up, but appears to a) not have committed any offenses since being elected and b) has devoted considerable effort since being elected to improving things for women?

i guess i'm thinking that sometimes, awareness and change are gradual. there isn't necessarily one day when you see the light, apologize all around and go forth to sin no more. it may be a series of little steps - from, for example, changing jobs, or friends, or a number of other elements in your matrix.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
I do not believe in punishment; I believe in consequences. Mainly, I believe in making it right. That's why I'm talking about fines, which should of course be paid to the victim.

Bad deeds cannot be "made right" by good deeds. No fine will ever make things right after burning down someone's house. No fine will ever make right sexually assaulting someone. No positive work Franken does will ever make things right for his victims.

If fines did make things right, and we chose the appropriate fine that paid for sexual assault, your sense of justice would be satisfied with Franken paying those fines for the assaults he committed, and he and his victims could each go on their merry way.

But your sense of justice would not be satisfied. You know that a cash payment wouldn't really make things right for the victims, because that's not what fines are for. You are saying you don't believe in punishment, but "paying for" crimes is exactly that.
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Strix Varia



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been following his story in particular but in general I have never been a big fan of jail time or monetary fines. Jail time just leaches off of society and teaches people how to be more efficient criminals. Fines either make people more desperate if they can't afford them or gives the wealthy a sense of "As long as I can pay the fine, I can get away with anything". I do like the idea of community service and execution. Sojobo is right that crimes can never be undone but I hold a persons value in their future. Community service can be a good learning opportunity and should always start with trying to minimize the damage caused by the original crime. Then move on to doing something more to help society. If it determined that a person will always be a threat with no redeeming qualities, remove them permanently. Remember that everyone makes mistakes. It is how you deal with them that defines you. But first you need the chance to define it. You can't do that if you are locked away or made destitute. Again, I am not speaking about this Franken person. Just my opinion of justice in general.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Taemon wrote:

The former gang-member who is now trying to keep kids from joining gangs? Splendid! This is a perfect example of someone trying to make it right. A serial sexual assaulter who never tried to make up for it or even acknowledge the assault until that time when there was no other option? He's got to go. He needs to make it right.


so where does that put someone like franken, who may not have acknowledged the problem before it came up, but appears to a) not have committed any offenses since being elected and b) has devoted considerable effort since being elected to improving things for women?

His transgressions were multiple and recent. I'd consider that pretty damning. As for b), I don't follow that argument at all. We should leave a serial sexual offender in place instead of electing someone who will continue to improve things for women without harassing them? Are those really so rare?

mouse wrote:
i guess i'm thinking that sometimes, awareness and change are gradual. there isn't necessarily one day when you see the light, apologize all around and go forth to sin no more. it may be a series of little steps - from, for example, changing jobs, or friends, or a number of other elements in your matrix.

I fully agree with that. I hope Franken is going to do that now.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Taemon wrote:
I do not believe in punishment; I believe in consequences. Mainly, I believe in making it right. That's why I'm talking about fines, which should of course be paid to the victim.

Bad deeds cannot be "made right" by good deeds. No fine will ever make things right after burning down someone's house. No fine will ever make right sexually assaulting someone. No positive work Franken does will ever make things right for his victims.

If fines did make things right, and we chose the appropriate fine that paid for sexual assault, your sense of justice would be satisfied with Franken paying those fines for the assaults he committed, and he and his victims could each go on their merry way.

But your sense of justice would not be satisfied. You know that a cash payment wouldn't really make things right for the victims, because that's not what fines are for. You are saying you don't believe in punishment, but "paying for" crimes is exactly that.

If the arsonist could unburn someone's house, that would be swell. But that's impossible. So the next best thing is that they build you a new house and give you a lot of money so you can replace your stuff. You still lost that favourite sweater and the painting your grandma made when she was a girl, but at least you're not homeless.

You can't un-assault someone. But you have to ease their pain somehow. If there's a better way than money, I'm all for that.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
mouse wrote:
Taemon wrote:

The former gang-member who is now trying to keep kids from joining gangs? Splendid! This is a perfect example of someone trying to make it right. A serial sexual assaulter who never tried to make up for it or even acknowledge the assault until that time when there was no other option? He's got to go. He needs to make it right.


so where does that put someone like franken, who may not have acknowledged the problem before it came up, but appears to a) not have committed any offenses since being elected and b) has devoted considerable effort since being elected to improving things for women?

His transgressions were multiple and recent. I'd consider that pretty damning. As for b), I don't follow that argument at all. We should leave a serial sexual offender in place instead of electing someone who will continue to improve things for women without harassing them? Are those really so rare?

what is your definition of recent? franken was elected 9 years ago, as i said, there appear to be no accusations that say he's done anything as senator. and there has been no investigation of any of them - while i am all for believing people, there are cases when a little proof is necessary - like when you take away someone's job. so we don't yet know how many offenses there actually were. as to b) - you yourself said "who never tried to make up for it" - you are not considering franken's actions since becoming a senator could "make up for it"? why not? and while there certainly can be someone elected who can improve things without harassing women (i imagine the woman who is being appointed to the position will fill that criteria), there is a funny thing about the US Senate: seniority genuinely matters. anyone who fills Franken's seat will not have his seniority, and that affects the job they will be able to do. so yeah, in this case, it may be better to keep him.

Taemon wrote:
mouse wrote:
i guess i'm thinking that sometimes, awareness and change are gradual. there isn't necessarily one day when you see the light, apologize all around and go forth to sin no more. it may be a series of little steps - from, for example, changing jobs, or friends, or a number of other elements in your matrix.

I fully agree with that. I hope Franken is going to do that now.


well, like i say - looks like franken is and has been doing that.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse, most of those allegiations aren't ten years ago, I don't consider that long. His political actions do not erase his personal actions. I think we have to agree to disagree, but I don't really understand why you are giving this one person the benefit of the doubt.

As for politics, well, this is a good development; the Democrats are finally taking a stand on something. They are far more equipped to take on the Republican sleazeballity with a clean house at their back.

The guy from Super Sized Me came out to say he did it too, and he came with that before any accusations. I think that's rather more convincing with regard to him actually wanting to change. I wouldn't look it up though, he did some rather nasty stuff.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, turns out there is one from 2010, after he was elected. others range from 2003 to 2009.

i guess i'm giving him "the benefit of the doubt", as you call it, because i do believe in due process. people should have a right to defend themselves and not be pulled down by just accusations. when you have someone like a weinstein or a conyers, who have made settlements with people and paid them large sums of money, well, that's pretty close to a confession.

but mostly i'm trying to figure out how we go forward from here. your solution seems to be, we treat anyone who has been accused of anything the same, whether it's a hand around the waist or an unwanted kiss or compelling someone into sex by threatening their future or violent rape. all the same, all demand immediate exclusion of the perpetrator.

i don't see that as being sustainable, or even really fair. franken is not a weinstein; he didn't sicc detectives on people to protect himself, he didn't threaten anyone's career, he didn't destroy lives. he has tried to assist (for example) rape victims, by insisting that all rape kits be processed, and that the victim not be charged for that. according to his staff members, he maintained a supportive, non-threatening or sexually charged workplace. he has, in short, been a jerk, but seems to be trying to change, and to have in fact done some really good things in changing. so that's why i want to keep him around. if we accept only perfect allies, i'm afraid we are going to be fighting pretty much alone.

but i'm still trying to figure out where to draw the line.

but as you say - probably best to just bury this poor horse now rather than keep beating him into the ground.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not my proposed solution. But I agree with the part about the perfect allies.

There are no heroes. One should never admire a human being overmuch. I've been the subject of hero-worship twice (by young adults I mentored) and it's a scary thing.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is the problem with humans - they keep turning out to be all-too-human.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah :-/ With regard to the hero-worship, I just ignored it, didn't try to tell them I'm only human too; in time, it passed. Both see me as a mere mortal now. I hate it. Makes you feel like a fraud. I hope it never happens again. I do love mentoring, though.
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