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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10290
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My previous post is 100% more useful than anything Guest has posted here.
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Mr Gary



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 6234
Location: Some pub in England

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'pink ghetto' sounds like a wonderful dessert.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand i'm done.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh FFS I had things to say when I checked this thread at lunch but that was 3 pages ago! *Sigh* I must go read.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3542
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:03 am    Post subject: Should I be surprised at you sinfest forum? Reply with quote

Wow, 5 pages in a day.

I'm sensing some unresolved issues guys..
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Mr Gary



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 6234
Location: Some pub in England

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:07 am    Post subject: Re: Should I be surprised at you sinfest forum? Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
poor quality bait

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Ptharien's Flame



Joined: 01 Apr 2012
Posts: 59
Location: Currently? In a forum.

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
tell me what you think about affirmative action right now

I vehemently oppose it.

ShadowCell wrote:
Ptharien's Flame wrote:
not 100%? then 0%!

That's definitely not what I said. I said (or, at least, I meant) that I think orthogonality will lead to equality far more effectively, robustly, and universally than individual block-focused civil rights campaigns like feminism. The one (admittedly huge) advantage that the block-focused campaigns have is that they can more easily capture a large following by emotional manipulation.

ShadowCell wrote:
also i guess we'd have to talk to Dogen about this but i'm pretty sure "orthogonality" is pretty much impossible for humans

You're probably right, but I can strive for the unattainable all the same. I refer you to this Erfworld strip for a more eloquent explanation of that philosophy than I can deliver.

Willem wrote:
Seriously though, your Rawlsianism is all fine and dandy but it ignores the facts on the ground and assumes that if you treat people exactly the same/govern them under the same laws, the results will be the same as well. The old equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome debate.

Thanks for pointing out Rawlsianism; I hadn't heard of it before. After reading up on it, I don't think it applies here, though. Orthogonality requires that communication not affect decisions except where necessary, but information in and of itself is not blocked at all, unlike Rawls' "veil." I am not saying that we shouldn't know our own demographic information, nor am I saying that we shouldn't tell other people said information; what I am saying is that said information should not be allowed to affect our decisions. Of course, being human, it inevitably will, but see above for why I still think the goal is worthwhile.

As far as behavior being a function of more than just the event(s) it's responding to, I agree, which I suppose gives me another reason to not be a Rawlsian.

Samsally wrote:
Its really frustrating me that people who refuse to call themselves feminists also refuse to even bother responding to the post I made that basically explained why people are upset by that.

I can't speak for Guest, but I at least reject the label of feminism because I actually don't agree with some of the movement's fundamental philosophy (which is why, and what, I posted in this thread in the first place). Calling me a feminist would be semantically incorrect.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
i don't get why you started talking about bird watching

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
chicks is it a chicks pun?

Umm...huh? I'm not exactly clear on what you're trying to say here... Confused

Darqcyde wrote:
boys have a penis girls have a vagina

Only if you exclude people with severe genital injuries or birth defects! Seriously though, this illustrates why equivalence, equality, and identity are all distinct. That's one of the reasons my personal philosophy is the way it is. If you allow that knowledge to color your decision when it's not relevant, then you slip back into the patriarchy (or a matriarchy, but the patriarchy is the one that happened to turn up in Western culture).

On a lighter note:
Mr Gary wrote:
'pink ghetto' sounds like a wonderful dessert.

I think so too. Something involving cake, and either raspberries or cherries.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3542
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:15 am    Post subject: no really, 5 pages in a day is kinda a big deal Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
poor quality bait

Bait for who?

Is that really what you think my posting is about?
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Quote:
When? When is she saying that? In that quote? No? Entirely different than what I think she's saying in that quote where she's saying it? Where are you getting these interpretations from?

I know English isn't your first language, but it not mine is eithor so you don't get to use that excuse. The quote again:

“Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine.”

I can't even explain this because it's right there in the words that are written. Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. The tactics of seduction are often difficult to distinguish from those used by rapists. It's. Right. There.

Let's start here - this isn't clear at all. The tactics of rape are difficult to distinguish from seduction? It is much like sex involves a penis and a vagina (for heterosexual sex). Sex is like sex - there is no surprise there.

But really, I hate that kind of writing. It is like only the most ridiculous and outlandish phrasings will be used to explain what is going on. It is like only screaming is the appropriate response to injustice. Oh, and the screaming must be at least as vocabularily intense as the slander of the original position. And of course it will be associated with the movement as a whole because it is the most memorable. It may work eventually but I think it is more counter productive than other, more "adult" methods.

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Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6399

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptharien's Flame wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Its really frustrating me that people who refuse to call themselves feminists also refuse to even bother responding to the post I made that basically explained why people are upset by that.

I can't speak for Guest, but I at least reject the label of feminism because I actually don't agree with some of the movement's fundamental philosophy (which is why, and what, I posted in this thread in the first place). Calling me a feminist would be semantically incorrect.

Did you completely ignore the part where I explained that treating each issue as the same problem completely negates your ability to actually help change any of them because they are not, in fact, the same problem? You know, the part I've posted twice now and nobody has bothered to respond to STILL?

You've effectively managed to completely blow off the only girl trying to address you in a thread about feminism. Bravo, sir.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6399

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Willem wrote:
Quote:
When? When is she saying that? In that quote? No? Entirely different than what I think she's saying in that quote where she's saying it? Where are you getting these interpretations from?

I know English isn't your first language, but it not mine is eithor so you don't get to use that excuse. The quote again:

“Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine.”

I can't even explain this because it's right there in the words that are written. Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. The tactics of seduction are often difficult to distinguish from those used by rapists. It's. Right. There.

Let's start here - this isn't clear at all. The tactics of rape are difficult to distinguish from seduction? It is much like sex involves a penis and a vagina (for heterosexual sex). Sex is like sex - there is no surprise there.

I mean, even when you deconstruct the difference of rape and consensual sex... there's a lot of arguments out there for rape being a matter of dominance, not romance. Coercion is a grey area, like, it's probably more about wanting sex than wanting to dominate someone. Most of the time, anyway.

It just seems like if a woman OR a man flat out says they want to have sex, it's pretty rude to argue with them.

Lasairfiona wrote:
But really, I hate that kind of writing. It is like only the most ridiculous and outlandish phrasings will be used to explain what is going on. It is like only screaming is the appropriate response to injustice. Oh, and the screaming must be at least as vocabularily intense as the slander of the original position. And of course it will be associated with the movement as a whole because it is the most memorable. It may work eventually but I think it is more counter productive than other, more "adult" methods.

I do think you're right, that the forum itself is evidence that this sort of writing may cause some people to react thoughtfully and by asking questions and speculating answers... But a lot of people will just point at it and scream 'bullshit' without putting any more thought into it.
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Ptharien's Flame



Joined: 01 Apr 2012
Posts: 59
Location: Currently? In a forum.

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Ptharien's Flame wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Its really frustrating me that people who refuse to call themselves feminists also refuse to even bother responding to the post I made that basically explained why people are upset by that.

I can't speak for Guest, but I at least reject the label of feminism because I actually don't agree with some of the movement's fundamental philosophy (which is why, and what, I posted in this thread in the first place). Calling me a feminist would be semantically incorrect.

Did you completely ignore the part where I explained that treating each issue as the same problem completely negates your ability to actually help change any of them because they are not, in fact, the same problem? You know, the part I've posted twice now and nobody has bothered to respond to STILL?

Okay, I'll respond. The following text is only my opinion, so make of it what you will:

A collection of problems can be concretely distinct but abstractly identical, and this is true of the problem(s) that civil rights movements try to solve, namely, an unnoticed but deep-seated societal prejudice for or against some group. Each civil rights movement focuses on the particulars of the specific prejudice it's trying to tackle, believing that the differences between the various movements' foci necessitates independent work. Working towards orthogonality, on the other hand, addresses the abstract problem, and allows that to propagate to all of the concrete instances. Specifically, if everyone treated gender (and race, and creed, etc., but this thread is about feminism) as orthogonal to the result of most mental computations, then there would be no room for prejudice to evolve.

Samsally wrote:
You've effectively managed to completely blow off the only girl trying to address you in a thread about feminism. Bravo, sir.

If, during the course of this discussion, my words have caused you negative emotions of any sort, I am sorry. I can't change my position, but if I knew how to reword it to be kinder, I would do so. I really mean that. My social skills are virtually nil, and always have been. Sad
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orthogonal?



Even the A on top is like a tiny, tiny penis head. Yes!

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Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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Ptharien's Flame



Joined: 01 Apr 2012
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Location: Currently? In a forum.

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Orthogonal?



Even the A on top is like a tiny, tiny penis head. Yes!

Indeed, that's exactly the concept I'm using (minus the penis part), just transplanted to ideas rather than lines.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6042
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

of course we wouldn't have biases if we were all perfect machines that could flawlessly objectively compute conclusions based on objective data inputs that never get run through a filter of cognitive biases. but we're not. so, unless someone can provide some solid evidence that it's possible for us to even approach something like "orthogonality" in our thinking, "working towards orthogonality instead of eliminating particular prejudices" is really just a very pretentious way of saying you'd rather sit on your ass and do nothing and turn up your nose at any efforts to actually combat prejudices because they aren't orthogonal enough.

and that's assuming you and thus i am even using that phrase correctly. i'm not sure you are, but maybe someone who can math and isn't trying to say we should all just be Vulcans and that would solve everything can clear that up for me.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6399

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that's bothered me is having to repeat myself three times just to get an answer when some guys can float through and make a few quips and actually get a response. That just isn't on.

I understand your position better now, and I definitely disagree with it. You say it yourself. If everybody thought the way you did, there wouldn't be a problem. Well. Not everybody thinks the way you do. To insist that they completely adopt your system is unreasonable because it's all or nothing. The same can be said about any system of beliefs.

Feminism specifically addresses individual problems that otherwise go ignored by our society as it currently stands. As a feminist, I don't ask you to completely overhaul your belief system. Instead I ask you to look closer at your own actions. Try to be objective and look at them from other angles. Understand why I might be upset that earlier you managed to respond to every single guy that's posted in this thread, while completely ignoring something I said that was very relevant to things you were talking about.

Your beliefs sound nice and all, but they just aren't practical for constructive change.
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