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Charleston AME Church Shooting, because WHAT decade is this?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1579

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Charleston AME Church Shooting, because WHAT decade is this? Reply with quote

I'm short on words on this one, past the numbing magnitude of horror. But it feels remiss not to have a thread on this.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/index.html
Quote:
(CNN)Dylann Roof admits he did it, two law enforcement officials said -- shooting and killing nine people he'd sat with for Bible study at a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina.

But why? To start a race war.

That's what Roof told investigators, according to one of the officials.

CNN's Evan Perez and Wesley Bruer were the first to report Roof's confession. Others earlier gave a glimpse into his twisted motivation -- including at the time and site of the shooting, Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. There, a survivor told Sylvia Johnson that Roof answered one man's pleas to stop by saying, "No, you've raped our women, and you are taking over the country ... I have to do what I have to do."

His roommate told ABC News that Roof was "big into segregation." And the Berkeley County, South Carolina, government tweeted a picture of him in a jacket with flags from apartheid-era South Africa and nearby Rhodesia, a former British colony that was ruled by a white minority until it became independent in 1980.

By telling authorities his aim, Roof admitted he attacked unarmed civilians for political purposes in an act of terror.

What led the 21-year-old South Carolinian to adopt this sick reasoning and take such actions Wednesday night? Did anyone else help him or even know about his plans? And what is his general mental state? All are major, looming questions. Another is what American society should or will do now, if anything, to prevent similar tragedies.

...

How did Dylann Roof get to the point of being accused of one of the most hateful, violent race-related crimes in recent memory?

His uncle, Carson Cowles, told The Washington Post that Roof's mother "never raised him to be like this." Those who knew him, though, paint a picture of someone who has long voiced racist sentiments, even if they never anticipated he'd act on them like this.

John Mullins recalls "racist slurs in a sense" that Roof made while the two attended White Knoll High School in Lexington, South Carolina, though he also remembers him having black friends.

"He would say it just as a joke," Mullins told CNN. "I never took it seriously. But ... maybe (I) should have."


Who is Dylann Roof?

Joey Meek told ABC that talk of reinstating segregation was nothing new for Roof, his roommate. He'd been plotting something for six months, though authorities weren't tipped off.

"I think he wanted something big like Trayvon Martin," Meek said, referring to the black Florida teen whose shooting death at the hands of George Zimmerman -- who was acquitted of murder -- provoked huge protests. "He wanted to make something spark up the race war again."

...

One key part of this horrific scheme -- the weapon -- came in April, when Roof bought a .45-caliber handgun at a Charleston gun store, the two law enforcement officials told Perez and Bruer from CNN, the first network to report this development. His grandfather says that Roof was given "birthday money" and that the family didn't know what Roof did with it.

...

Before Roof left the church, he asked one of the elderly members whether he had shot her, and she said no.

"And he said, 'Good, because we need a survivor because I'm going to kill myself,' " Johnson told CNN.



South Carolina has the death penalty, and our governor has voiced her opinion that he should get it.
Let me take the opportunity to suggest that it might be a good time for her to revisit the issue of the Confederate battle flag flying over a Civil War memorial on statehouse grounds. Perhaps the prominent display of Confederate novelty plates and segregated national flags on his apparel might cause CEOs to consider voicing their objections this time around, because apparently the opinion of CEOs is what really matters on legacy racial issues.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

south carolina doesn't have a hate crime statute, but i'll be it has something on terrorism - and i don't see why this isn't treated as such, especially given that his avowed attempt was to start a war. under an enemy flag, which does indeed still fly over south caroline, without even the decency to be at half-staff. kinda tells you how the south carolina legislature really feels about things, since they apparently are the only ones who can order it lowered. i hope the people of south carolina start asking them about that.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was pretty powerful listening to the families of the victims forgive the alleged shooter during his bond hearing. It's also somewhat nauseating how quickly some want to use this tragedy to advance one agenda or another.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
It was pretty powerful listening to the families of the victims forgive the alleged shooter during his bond hearing. It's also somewhat nauseating how quickly some want to use this tragedy to advance one agenda or another.


If you're talking about Fox using this as evidence of the "war on Christianity" because it took place in a church while playing dumb(er than usual) about the undeniable racial element? Yeah, that in particular is horrifically disgusting.
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Professor_Frink



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
It was pretty powerful listening to the families of the victims forgive the alleged shooter during his bond hearing. It's also somewhat nauseating how quickly some want to use this tragedy to advance one agenda or another.


While you might not be saying this exactly, I'm getting pretty sick of hearing "now is not the time to have this discussion," regarding racism and gun control.

Now is exactly the time to have this discussion. We should have been having it years ago, but now, when we are all feeling United under the human banner of empathy, is the BEST time to have these difficult discussions, because we are more likely to see eachother first and foremost as fellow people.

So yes, we do need to talk about racism and guns and violence. It's unpleasant, yes, but while we still remember that we love and support one another, PLEASE let's talk, before it gets shoved under the carpet again.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
It was pretty powerful listening to the families of the victims forgive the alleged shooter during his bond hearing. It's also somewhat nauseating how quickly some want to use this tragedy to advance one agenda or another.


If you're talking about Fox using this as evidence of the "war on Christianity" because it took place in a church while playing dumb(er than usual) about the undeniable racial element? Yeah, that in particular is horrifically disgusting.


That would be included among those things, had I seen evidence of it.
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Professor_Frink



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Rune wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
It was pretty powerful listening to the families of the victims forgive the alleged shooter during his bond hearing. It's also somewhat nauseating how quickly some want to use this tragedy to advance one agenda or another.


If you're talking about Fox using this as evidence of the "war on Christianity" because it took place in a church while playing dumb(er than usual) about the undeniable racial element? Yeah, that in particular is horrifically disgusting.


That would be included among those things, had I seen evidence of it.

http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/18/foxs-steve-doocy-its-extraordinary-that-charles/204043

Quote:
Later, Doocy added, “Extraordinarily, they called it a ‘hate crime,’ and some look at it as, ‘Well, because it was a white guy and a black church,’ but you made a great point earlier about the hostility towards Christians. And it was a church. So maybe that’s what they were talking about. They haven’t explained it to us.”
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm surprised doocy doesn't need things like walking and breathing explained to him.

mike yard, on the nightly show, commented that this guy had to drive past any number of churches to get to the AME - if he was just expressing hostility towards christians, he had a lot of other options.
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Professor_Frink



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i'm surprised doocy doesn't need things like walking and breathing explained to him.

mike yard, on the nightly show, commented that this guy had to drive past any number of churches to get to the AME - if he was just expressing hostility towards christians, he had a lot of other options.


It is beyond a shadow of a doubt it was racially motivated. The survivor reported he said "You all rape women and you're taking over our country."

His friend said he made numerous racist and segregationist comments, and talked about killing black people before.

In a photo the perpetrator is wearing a pro apartheid flag on his jacket.

There is no question, and the fact some are claiming ignorance to possible motives is ridiculous. While his guilt needs to be determined by the court system, that doesn't mean we can't react to the facts of the case.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention he committed the act on a day that was historically significant to that church and had absolutely everything to do with race, considering it was a slave rebellion led by one of the church's founders. That particular church has an iconic place in the Black struggle for freedom in America.

You cannot have a more cut and dried example of racial animus. This is it. This is the extreme example you give when you ask the question, "What will it take to convince you that racism is still a problem in America?" It just happened. Now what, 'Murica? What are we gonna do?
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, now, you all have to remember that fox has spent a lot of effort over the years proving that the most marginalized, the most exploited, the most discriminated-against group in this country is native-born white christian males. it's going to take them some effort to gin this shooting up into something that clearly proves the blacks are the racists here. (undoubtedly because they are now reacting so strongly to south carolina still waving the confederate flag - how dare they attack that revered symbol of whites! where's the respect for _our_ culture?)

once they've got that worked out, though, i'm sure they will be willing to work on this 'racism in america' thing.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh jeez, one of the doocy links goes to a discussion of whether or not we should now start arming pastors.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
well, now, you all have to remember that fox has spent a lot of effort over the years proving that the most marginalized, the most exploited, the most discriminated-against group in this country is native-born white christian males. it's going to take them some effort to gin this shooting up into something that clearly proves the blacks are the racists here. (undoubtedly because they are now reacting so strongly to south carolina still waving the confederate flag - how dare they attack that revered symbol of whites! where's the respect for _our_ culture?)

once they've got that worked out, though, i'm sure they will be willing to work on this 'racism in america' thing.


Yeah, there's a problem with counting on the discretion of your looniest sympathisers to not actually act on the beliefs you espouse, to keep from having the cover blown on your bass-ackwards and batshit worldview.

Your loonies believe you.
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor_Frink wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
It was pretty powerful listening to the families of the victims forgive the alleged shooter during his bond hearing. It's also somewhat nauseating how quickly some want to use this tragedy to advance one agenda or another.


While you might not be saying this exactly, I'm getting pretty sick of hearing "now is not the time to have this discussion," regarding racism and gun control.

Now is exactly the time to have this discussion. We should have been having it years ago, but now, when we are all feeling United under the human banner of empathy, is the BEST time to have these difficult discussions, because we are more likely to see eachother first and foremost as fellow people.

So yes, we do need to talk about racism and guns and violence. It's unpleasant, yes, but while we still remember that we love and support one another, PLEASE let's talk, before it gets shoved under the carpet again.


As an outsider to American discourse, I have to agree with Rune here. When exactly would people like a 'serious and thoughtful discourse' on gun control to take place? I'm trying not to sound facetious here (and failing, I guess), but you'll have to pick a pretty specific day, because violence with firearms in the US seems to be making the news here - two thousand miles away, on a different continent - pretty much fortnightly.

I just don't understand America's relationship with guns.
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