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Ethics
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desire wrote:
mouse wrote:
but i think there are some things everyone can agree on - you know, not killing, lying, stealing, misrepresenting yourself, etc. pretty basic, but you can build on them.


Are they really agreed on though anymore? I know once upon a time they were... people actually lived by them but how much do they mean, what do they truly stand for now? Especially when the people who represent our nation and its people flaunt most of them pretty openly? And we're not even shocked or even surprised by it anymore.

jsimp: In theory our laws are created by the majority. But it doesn't seem like this is the reality anymore. And I guess our laws/judicial system is the closest I could find to a code of ethics in this country so what does that bode for us?

There are misappropriations of the intent of the law, as well as the system itself, just as there are those who would twist conventional morality to their own ends. Neither law nor ethics is reduced by their new interpretation and one could make the argument that by observing their example - and our reactions to it - we gain a deeper understanding of what those mean to us, be they laws or social mores. Abuse of the system also helps us define the system.

[edit for grammar... before sporko or someone catches me]
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
not morality -

sounds like marie is looking to put her finger on a workable ethical standard that is universal enough to apply to folks from one shining sea to the other one.


the fact that some people break that standard doesn't make the standard invalid. if everyone held to it without question, we probably wouldn't need a codified standard.

while politicians, etc., may break the code, that's certainly not accepted behavior - witness things like the incarceration (after many tearful apologies) of my own former congressman - and the fight bush seems to be having over things like "forceful" interrogations (or whatever codeword he's using).
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Desire



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurhis: I have my own morality. It is not perfect but as long as I keep trying to improve it, I feel i am going in the right direction.

MT was right:

Major Tom wrote:
not morality -

sounds like marie is looking to put her finger on a workable ethical standard that is universal enough to apply to folks from one shining sea to the other one.


Thank you for summing it up in one neat sentence for me. Smile


So do you guys believe we have such a universal thical standard in place already then? Am I just being too pessimistic when I all I can see is the little we have slowly eroding away like the fender of an old chevy? All I see are holes and a fragile lacing of rust.

I'd rather believe that we are growing stronger and healthier socially, not weaker. But I'm having trouble seeing it. What am I missing that you guys see? Is there any real way to improve?
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Desire



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Lasairfiona wrote:
only the south has realized that there needs to be a difference between you and you (pl).

Yeah. If there's one thing I hate it's the singular y'all. WTF? Get it right, Yankees!



Don't forget the jersey plural, "yous." Rolling Eyes
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desire wrote:
I'd rather believe that we are growing stronger and healthier socially, not weaker. But I'm having trouble seeing it. What am I missing that you guys see? Is there any real way to improve?


well, it's hope, more than anything else.

and a few news stories:
Quote:
The White House took a critical step on Wednesday in its effort to get Congressional blessing for President Bush’s domestic eavesdropping program, but it ran into increasingly fierce resistance from leading Republicans over its plan to try terror suspects being held in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.


Quote:
The Senate Armed Services Committee today endorsed legislation that would give suspected terrorists more legal protections than the president desires. Colin L. Powell today sent a letter opposing the president’s approach to interrogations.


and, of course, hope for the coming elections, and for possible impeachment proceedings...

but really, one sees decency all around, in small things. maybe it's just that i'm old enough that i can remember the world being a more violent, negative place - but i think the general trend for humanity _is_ upward. there are occasional setbacks, but i don't see any strong desire to settle for a violent, selfish, lawless world.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: whee definitions Reply with quote

Lurhis wrote:
The lines blur and everything goes to hell.




Social terminology:

Power
Authority
Legitimacy

Philosophical terminology:

Ethics
Morals



.. all five definitions are important. The two categories play off of each other:

Ethics and morals create the legitimacy of the use of power by accepted authority; the legitimacy of authority helps define and shape national ethics and morals.

It's nearly impossible to further explain the interplay UNTIL one picks up a dictionary (or wikipedia) and tries to grok exactly -- exactly -- what each of these five words mean.
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AfyonBlade



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a pretty interesting conversation with my friend who is shipping off with the Marines in Iraq in a few weeks. He was telling me about all of the therapy that is provided for the men after they kill someone. I won't go into the long religious discussion, but it basically boils down to 'It seems to be inherently evil, and the worst wrong possible, to kill another human.' When you hear someone killed someone else, you usually gasp. Why? When you hear someone was beat up, robbed, or cheated on, you gasp, or go 'Awww...' Why?

Human emotions are a very good guideline to what is moral or ethical or whatever. If you are trying to nail them down, just sit and think things through. I'm not a really religious guy, but the 10 commandments are a pretty good place to start with some guidelines. I guarantee that everyone(short of those statistical anomalies) would agree on them. If you say 'I can't see myself doing that', then it's most likely not moral/ethical/the-right thing-to-do. I say most likely because there are topics like pre-marital sex that come down to a personal view.

Am I off base here?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AfyonBlade wrote:
I'm not a really religious guy, but the 10 commandments are a pretty good place to start with some guidelines. I guarantee that everyone(short of those statistical anomalies) would agree on them.

Well except 1 and 2.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

9 and 10 are iffy too
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kame



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3, 4, 5 and 7 are too easily twisted for my tastes.
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Idlethought



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally like most of the 8 "I'd really rather you didn't"s. Just out of curiosity where do most of you guys pull your morals from? For that matter, what general rules do you guys live by?
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kame



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enjoy life, and as much as possible, don't do it at someone elses expense.
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AfyonBlade



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, well, 6-10. Forget about 1-5, then.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this idea, but now I'm not sure if it can be done, but here goes: Can an action be moral yet unethical and could another action be unethical yet moral? I was trying to think of an example thinking it might help but I'm stumped, the best I could think of would be doctor assisted suicide.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it depends on which ethical standard and what set of morals you are applying.

i'll say this, though -- it is definitely possible for an action to be unethical, immoral and completely legal.
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