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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 9278
Location: Bellingham, WA
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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This post took forever because it was sitting in my laptop, with no internet at home, and I was not about to retype it on my iphone. So, here you go, a day late and a dollar short!
| Darqcyde wrote: | | I disagree. There is no shortage of people who honestly think to criticize the President is wrong, and the reason they feel this is wrong is because 'it's the President and instead we should always show him respect'. I've had personal interactions with these sorts as well as seen various comments on news articles here there and all the hell over the place. I think it's not because of misplaced loyalty so much as they view him as being above our moral judgement, they misunderstand what criticism actually is, or some other such faulty reasoning. And you can find them on all sides of the political field. I think anyone who votes for a party candidate solely based upon party affiliation (and you can't argue there aren't people who vote this way) is engaging in objectification; if they aren't looking into the what kind of person the candidate actually is when they make their decisions to vote then those voters are, in my opinion, engaging in a form of objectification. Also I feel that the persona's we see displayed publicly is always just a shadow of the actual person themselves and the inability for people to realize there's a difference between the two is part of the problem. |
I'm fine with the concept of positive objectification (just like there are positive stereotypes, like that asians are good at math). I just haven't seen anything yet that's risen to the level of objectification in my mind. In order to be objectified a person would have to be unable to view the President as a person with thoughts and feelings. I don't think believing you shouldn't criticize him rises to this level. Mainly because there's a difference between public and private behavior, and the idea of "respecting the office," doesn't mean you have to respect the man, just that if you don't respect him you keep it to yourself. So I don't see anything inherent in that idea that necessarily implies objectification.
People who vote party line all the time is kind of a different issue. I've never voted anything but Democrat, and at times it's been because I seriously disliked the Republican candidate (I was not a huge fan of Kerry, for instance). But I don't know that being ignorant is the same as objectifying. If a person votes Democrat because he's always voted Democrat and he generally believes the Democratic party is more closely aligned with his ideas than the Republican party, but knows nothing about the candidate as an individual, is that really objectification, or simply assumption? I don't think making assumptions about people is objectification. Harmful, sure. But not objectification. Because you can make all kinds of assumptions about people in order to make less intellectual effort, but then turn around and regard those people as individuals in other situations (for instance, when they stop living up to your ideals).
| Quote: | | I don't think it's simply a childhood mental error. I think it's something we continue to do throughout our lives to varying degrees; some kids figure out "hey teachers are people too" and some never do. Anytime we look at people as good guys (police , teachers, doctors, fireman) and bad guys (criminals, drug users, prostitutes) we are engaging in objectification. Also I'd posit your assumption that teachers never hate kids (you're implying it) is also based upon this. I know there are at least a few racists teachers around here (which is extremely racists area btw, you don't live someplace for almost 25 years and not pick up on these things) that talk about the "nigglets" in their classes. I know that's an extreme example, but to say there's not biased and mistreatment enacted upon students is just silly. Heck, where I live is a trailer park (mostly double wides) and I've seen reactions change right in front of my eyes when they find out |
I didn't really make any argument about teachers, so this seems tangential. I said I love it when kids tell that particular lie, not that there's no instance when teachers actually dislike kids (that is, I said "I like it when this is the case," and not, "there is never a time when this is not the case"). I still don't see making assumptions about people as a group as the same as objectification, unless you are incapable of also viewing those people as individuals. That's the part of which I've yet to see any evidence.
| Quote: | | I don't think that's the case. An idol is a thing, a persona, it is not a person. I think there two sides to the objectification coin, a positive and a negative. We've been looking at the negative but I posit the positive is just as bad. I think having a notion that someone is above you or better than yourself can be just a damaging. I think that it's a large part of why people in positions of power and authority can get away with corrupt acts w/o people calling them on it. I know you've heard cases where respected community figures (be they football coach, politician, priest, police officer, etc.) get's convicted of child abuse and then it comes to light that people had made prior accusations yet were dismissed. "Fireman Bob was flashing little girls? Nonsense, he's a good guy. Why just the other day he saved my neighbors daughter from a burning building. Week before he did CPR and brought back that Johnson kid that fell off the pier. Someone like that couldn't be a bad guy." |
But the definition of objectification you provided specifically says that it's denying their personality and sentience. Applying positive labels to them may be harmful, wrong, ignorant, prejudiced... but assuming people in prestigious positions have positive personality traits is still the opposite of the definition you provided. Unless you mean that it's denying their true personality and putting assumptions in place, which would be fine, except...
| Quote: | | Also you're right about their opinions carrying more weight, but it's also why if negative personal details (i.e. facts about them as a person, not their performing persona) come to light they can loose that status. |
... this tells us that we can rewrite those positive assumptions if they're challenged, and recognize how the individual diverges from the assumption.
| Quote: | | Also, have you ever worked in the hospitality field or customer service? I think there's this notion that if we pay for service we are thereby entitled to treat the workers with less humanity than we would otherwise. |
I worked in retail from ages 18-22. People are assholes, but no one ever treated me like an object. Then again, I was in a position where they had to ask me for information and to explain things to them. And I would tell them to leave if they were abusive. So, maybe my experience was different.
But again, being treated badly isn't the same as being treated as an object. Abuse isn't objectification necessarily. We've got a definition of what it means to be objectified. If you're my cashier and make a mistake and I say, "What are you, stupid?" then I'm an asshole, but there's nothing inherent in that that says I fail to see you as a human being. Just that I think you're bad at your job, or want to make you feel bad for irritating me. Those are also not objectification, even though they're wrong.
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"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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