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2012-06-17: Empathy
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember that bit about goblins shitting dark matter? yeah

Don't gotta explain nuthin'
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the party is hardly immortal. the party doesn't appear to be in charge of Russia anymore, does it?

do you just not understand what these words mean or something?
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Dark Archon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
if you promise someone a better life for themselves, you are promising something that will directly benefit them - i.e., appealing to self-interest.

Yeah, that's right. But then they start asking for sacrifice - and self-sacrifice really isn't something in your self-interest.

mouse wrote:

if you are talking altruism, you are talking about doing something to benefit someone _else_ - not you.

so if you promise the middle-class better wages, no competition from immigrants, no spending their hard-earned money on welfare queens - you are absolutely not talking altruism. you are talking self-interest. and that seems to be what you claim those totalitarian dictators are promising.

Nope. What is a big lie, you forgot? They promise communism in 1980, apples of Mars, world without war, new communist man and so on, but then you ask for something real, material - they shut your mouth by prison, mental hospital or death. They make no promises which can be granted - so their power won't be shattered.
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Last edited by Dark Archon on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dark Archon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
the party is hardly immortal. the party doesn't appear to be in charge of Russia anymore, does it?

It is in charge. People from KGB in high places of goverment - starting with President.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That you can lie and convince people to support totalitarianism by appealing to altruism doesn't mean that this is the only result of altruism. That's a post hoc argument (i.e., it's not very rational).
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that and i'd like some examples of totalitarian states that were built on altruism, i.e. concern for the welfare of people other than yourself.

generally, dictators come to power and keep themselves there by appealing to self-interest--i.e. "support me and i'll guarantee you a job," "support me and i won't have you shot," "support me and i'll destroy the Jews/communists/collaborators/etc for you," "support me or the Americans/Russians/etc will get you," etc, among other things. none of which appeal to the welfare of other people and all of which appeal to the welfare of yourself.
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Dark Archon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
doesn't mean that this is the only result of altruism..

I didn't said that. In fact, I am not agree with Rand on that term. I said that you can't convince masses of people to support totalitarianism by appealing to egoism. For good or for bad, egoism always elitist.
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Dark Archon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
that and i'd like some examples of totalitarian states that were built on altruism, i.e. concern for the welfare of people other than yourself.

USSR. Every left-winged dictatorship in history.

ShadowCell wrote:

generally, dictators come to power and keep themselves there by appealing to self-interest--i.e. "support me and i'll guarantee you a job," "support me and i won't have you shot," "support me and i'll destroy the Jews/communists/collaborators/etc for you," "support me or the Americans/Russians/etc will get you," etc, among other things. none of which appeal to the welfare of other people and all of which appeal to the welfare of yourself.

We talk about totalitarianism or authoritarianism? It's different things - they have different sources of power and different propaganda. Russian propaganda was built completely on "welfare of other people".
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
USSR

Altruism was not the reason it became a dictatorship.



Also, I don't see how any of this has anything to do with the things people are actually advocating
Heretical Rants wrote:

I like socialised medicine and infrastructure. I like government assistance for the poor. I also like a mostly open job market and a free market with regulations in place to keep everyone from trodding on everyone else's toes. GIVE ME ALL THESE THINGS pl0x

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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yyyyyeah, you're gonna have to explain how "welfare of other people" supported totalitarianism. because even the Soviet Union's propagandizing was aimed at your self-interest--i.e. "support us and we'll do this stuff for you," "support us and we'll protect you from the Americans," "support us and we'll protect the workers just like you, comrade," "support us or we'll kill you."

for someone who seems to think he's seen through the lies of Soviet propaganda, you sure did miss the point of it. in the context of political propaganda, "the welfare of the people" means "the welfare of you," because you, the person at whom the propaganda is aimed, are one of "the people." altruism is not why people ever latched onto communism in the first place. people latched onto communism because it promised them a better life and they believed it. you know, self-interest.

this is, like, basic stuff. you're really not proving that altruism is the root of totalitarianism.

so, again, cite some examples. and by examples i mean something more than a meaningless statement like "every left-wing government ever." 'cuz the Scandinavian countries are definitely left-wing--hell, even Canada is left-leaning--and yet they are clearly not totalitarian societies.
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Dark Archon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:

Altruism was not the reason it became a dictatorship.

Altruism was the reason it became possible to build such machine of opression.

Heretical Rants wrote:

Also, I don't see how any of this has anything to do with the things people are actually advocating

Heretical Rants wrote:

I like socialised medicine and infrastructure. I like government assistance for the poor. I also like a mostly open job market and a free market with regulations in place to keep everyone from trodding on everyone else's toes. GIVE ME ALL THESE THINGS pl0x
[/quote]
Oh, we had whose things. Medicine was shit, infrastructure was shit, government assistance for the poor taken any reason to work. Hell, there was constant deficite of food and basic goods. We had it all - for a price.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UNDER THE GODDAMN TOTALITARIAN STATE
NO YOU DID NOT HAVE THOSE THINGS
NO, THAT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT ANYONE IS SERIOUSLY ADVOCATING

OMFG I'M NOT POSTING IN THIS THREAD AGAIN

edit: gotta end it on a positive note, though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj76YgiwdmM
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm with Rants here... you don't really seem to have a point here, Archon, other than to say "no, that's not true" to whatever anyone else says. I mean, you attacked equality and socialism, but then when I showed you that countries that have higher equality and more socialized services are also the happiest, you just claimed they weren't socialist... umm... except they are, and they're the opposite of what Rand promotes (laissez faire economics, or totally free markets without regulations).

I'm not looking to make a socialist utopia. I'm looking for what works. If you want to sit there and tell us your country is shit, fine. But other countries seem to be doing just fine, and I see no reason not to learn from their examples.
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Dark Archon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
yyyyyeah, you're gonna have to explain how "welfare of other people" supported totalitarianism. because even the Soviet Union's propagandizing was aimed at your self-interest--i.e. "support us and we'll do this stuff for you," "support us and we'll protect you from the Americans," "support us and we'll protect the workers just like you, comrade," "support us or we'll kill you."

You can just have a nice walk on the wiki and tell me, how this picture:

is aimed at self-interest of USSR people.


ShadowCell wrote:
for someone who seems to think he's seen through the lies of Soviet propaganda, you sure did miss the point of it. in the context of political propaganda, "the welfare of the people" means "the welfare of you," because you, the person at whom the propaganda is aimed, are one of "the people." altruism is not why people ever latched onto communism in the first place. people latched onto communism because it promised them a better life and they believed it. you know, self-interest.

Oh, it's you missed the point. Soviet propaganda asked you to work, study, fight and die for "the people" without any reward, expect "equal future". Such demand of sacrifice impossible without altruism.

ShadowCell wrote:

"every left-wing government ever."

Left-wing dictatorship. Don't change my words to your bidding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact + communist China in early years + north Korea+ many of original Arabic dictatorships, supported by USSR, although they more like authoritarian regimes.

ShadowCell wrote:

'cuz the Scandinavian countries are definitely left-wing--hell, even Canada is left-leaning--and yet they are clearly not totalitarian societies.
They aren't dictatorships. Being sick doesn't make you dead.
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