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June 23: Jerk Factory
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: *sigh* Reply with quote

So THAT'S where they come from! I always wondered...
TragicallyUnhip wrote:

The point is, where is there a character to actually model GOOD behavior? Where is there someone who isn't either a sexist jerk or a victim raging at the system? It's no longer Monique, who's basically de-sexed herself, it certainly isn't the little revolutionary munchkins, who really, truly are humorless and one-dimensional to the point of - to me - being boring. Who is a character who actually displays what Tat might want to present as the right attitude and behavior and then getting rewarded for it? Is it Criminy? What do our little munchkin feminists think of him? Story? Does he even have any kind of interaction with the Patriarchy? In a very real sense, he's a victim himself, but he's a seeker, not a warrior. He's looking for the intangible story that will fulfill him.

It's all very well to protest the way things are, but I haven't seen anyone in the strip to actively counter the evil patriarchy in a positive way. "Give up your porn" is just simplistic and doesn't look at why it even is a problem. Pulling the plug on the patriarchy's message was cute, but just a stunt, and of course ultimately futile.

Show me a character who demonstrates somehow that you don't need porn. What, for instance, would Buddha say? Or even Jesus? None of the really positive - oriented characters have weighed in on this stuff or been shown to be interacting on that level. It would be very interesting to see Glossy face-to-face with Buddha. What happens when all that unfocused discontent gets a dose of serenity? Or the Dragon? These are, to me, the larger-than-life characters who might provide the gateway to solutions, not just protest.

Main thing is, as a reader I like to be shown, not told.

Monique, Glossy and maybe Criminy to a lesser extent are currently the role models. Monique is someone who has recently "woken up" and is learning how to overcome the problems patriarchy poses for her, Glossy is already learned and trying to help others in addition to herself, Criminy seems like he might currently be placed in the precursor stage to figuring it out. There might be something going down with Lil E's amnesia in the future too.

Also, the strip depicting porn as being a tool to drain cash from men who have bought into the messages patriarchy indoctrinates into men and destroy their sense of empathy towards women while leaving them with nothing of value in return is pretty much the definition of "showing what is bad about porn". The discussion with the stop porn booth was just to show how men are so willing to illogically defend the patriarchal ideology destroying their humanity through avoiding discussing the real problems they have because "emotions are unmanly/womanly and thus bad". And this is really only one of many illogical methods men will use to defend things that hurt them.
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daveshan



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: *sigh* Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
So THAT'S where they come from! I always wondered...
TragicallyUnhip wrote:

The point is, where is there a character to actually model GOOD behavior? Where is there someone who isn't either a sexist jerk or a victim raging at the system? It's no longer Monique, who's basically de-sexed herself, it certainly isn't the little revolutionary munchkins, who really, truly are humorless and one-dimensional to the point of - to me - being boring. Who is a character who actually displays what Tat might want to present as the right attitude and behavior and then getting rewarded for it? Is it Criminy? What do our little munchkin feminists think of him? Story? Does he even have any kind of interaction with the Patriarchy? In a very real sense, he's a victim himself, but he's a seeker, not a warrior. He's looking for the intangible story that will fulfill him.

It's all very well to protest the way things are, but I haven't seen anyone in the strip to actively counter the evil patriarchy in a positive way. "Give up your porn" is just simplistic and doesn't look at why it even is a problem. Pulling the plug on the patriarchy's message was cute, but just a stunt, and of course ultimately futile.

Show me a character who demonstrates somehow that you don't need porn. What, for instance, would Buddha say? Or even Jesus? None of the really positive - oriented characters have weighed in on this stuff or been shown to be interacting on that level. It would be very interesting to see Glossy face-to-face with Buddha. What happens when all that unfocused discontent gets a dose of serenity? Or the Dragon? These are, to me, the larger-than-life characters who might provide the gateway to solutions, not just protest.

Main thing is, as a reader I like to be shown, not told.

Monique, Glossy and maybe Criminy to a lesser extent are currently the role models. Monique is someone who has recently "woken up" and is learning how to overcome the problems patriarchy poses for her, Glossy is already learned and trying to help others in addition to herself, Criminy seems like he might currently be placed in the precursor stage to figuring it out. There might be something going down with Lil E's amnesia in the future too.

Also, the strip depicting porn as being a tool to drain cash from men who have bought into the messages patriarchy indoctrinates into men and destroy their sense of empathy towards women while leaving them with nothing of value in return is pretty much the definition of "showing what is bad about porn". The discussion with the stop porn booth was just to show how men are so willing to illogically defend the patriarchal ideology destroying their humanity through avoiding discussing the real problems they have because "emotions are unmanly/womanly and thus bad". And this is really only one of many illogical methods men will use to defend things that hurt them.


But isn't that the same as anyone and cigarettes or alcohol? And porn doesn't leave you with any physical problems.

Plus, porn helps curb a lot of strong sexual desires into a manageable outlet. I'm not going to lie, there were plenty of times I would've had sex before I was ready if I wasn't able to masturbate. I know women who have said the same thing. Also, many couples get each other warmed up for sex by watching porn.

I'm saying all this because it goes back to why I didn't like Glossy at all until two days ago. She just seems to only see one side of everything and insist everyone come to her side of things.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daveshan, honestly I feel on that subject, that the problem is what KIND of porn the person is into...and I don't mean BDSM or whatever. Not that the concept of porn or masturbation is bad.

I mean, a lot of porn is just violent towards women. Probably because the only people that had the notion to actually FILM porn, were the types to like that kind of emotion. Where as a lot more people have been trying to change that industry into something more watchable by all. I think that's why the "Girls Gone Wild" was so popular, besides the fact that it was slightly more real. (slightly) But because there's a bunch of guys that can't be aroused by the dehumanization of women that occurs in so much porn.

And that stuff brings people up with bad ideas of what a real physical relationship should be about. I know I've seen artwork that could be considered porn that was attractive, because it represented actual sexual experiences. Or just call it lovemaking I guess instead of sex. Something. Anyway, like-wise I've come across my fair share of artwork that just made me grossed out at the way it seemed so gross and fake.

But the majority of the way porn was filmed for forever was negative towards women, and so many guys were brought up thinking they should treat women that way or being upset girls didn't want to be that way with them. When fantasy hurts reality, you get problems.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MasterMorality wrote:
Why? Because even the women can't agree what they want from it. Some are fine being docile house makers and are more than comfortable taking on the traditional submissive roles, others seem to want a return to chivalry without the patriarchal values (which isn't possible, might I add), whilst other still will argue for total equality, even to the point of accepting that, should things become violent at any point in their lives, they will not be allowed to hide behind the fact of their gender, should the aggressor be male.

I mostly wanted to address that chivalry can exist without patriarchal influence. The romanticized chivalry is all about respecting women. It's been a long time since the idea of chivalry was male dominant. While it might not work in a feminist theory that both sexes are 100% equal. But feminism as a whole doesn't seem to oppress the idea of NO gender differences. It's about not discriminating based on them.

For instance, my wife and I are big proponents of the feminist movement, but that doesn't change the fact I have tried to open the door for her, or do other things associated that "men are supposed to do for women" since we got together years ago. But things like that don't propagate patriarchy. It may encourage gender differences to some point, but I don't feel it does so negatively. It's all about the "motive" of why people do things. For instance, I'm not OBLIGATED to get the door for her, nor if I want to get the door is she required to wait for me to get it if she doesn't want to. It's about romance where I open the door for her when I can as a sign I love and respect her.

All the while we don't follow gender roles at all. She's in the higher track career, almost done with her doctorate. I am an artist for a living. Guess who's going to make more. Razz Likewise, we'd decided it'd make more sense if we'd decided to have kids that I'd be the one to take care of them more in the traditional sense if it came to that. Even though we've decided that we'll most likely not have kids, as the idea of having to be pregnant, not to mention the fact that it chemically changes your brain (yay for school info we learn), makes it pretty unlikely, we have decided that adopting might not be out of the question someday. But still, we'd choose me to have to help with the kids more, because I will be making less. It just makes sense.

To that, I don't think there's anything wrong with a housewife or househusband either way if life comes that way. It's just the idea that we don't force anyone into any roles they don't want.
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Ashland



Joined: 15 May 2012
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But things like that don't propagate patriarchy.


No. Listen. Patriarchy, in the sense being used here, is not a thing. It's not something you point to like a piece of cheese and say, "That's a patriarchy."

One does not hold open a door for a lady and say, "I am safely not being a patriarchy."

It's an intangible concept. It's abstract. It's whatever you think it is. Tat thinks it's... something. I don't know what the hell he actually believes it is, but apparently the best way to fight it is to shave your head and accept you're a victim to it. Also it has something to do with porn, which Tat's particular kind of feminism says is very bad... somehow. For women. And men.

I mean, I haven't yet dated a woman who won't admit to watching porn sometimes and it never seemed to hurt them. But Tat says it's wrong and they need to stop because it's causing them to... lose... empathy for women. Which is themselves. I've had girlfriends ask me to write porn for them before and that turned out okay, but I think Tat believes there's secret porn influences we don't know about.

Look, the reason why a bunch of people are suddenly drifting into the forums to complain about this feminism stuff is because it's basically dominating the comic and we hate it. It's stupid. It doesn't mean anything. Yes, a lot of the dedicated fans here on the forum are in support of it, but a lot of the dedicated fans appear to be motherfucking insane, insecure people who would openly sit down and explain their entire family planning strategy to the board because they're sure it proves they aren't "propagating patriarchy". And that lets them be accepted by the board!

I mean, all this shit basically boils down to whether or not you're a believer. If you believe in feminism, you'll be saved. If you don't, you've been fed lies by the great fatherhood and must be cleansed of your wicked ways. You've been tricked by a diabolic system that pervades every corner of society so deeply that none of us could possibly even see or understand the methodology for determining equality and fairness. Our minds are, like, prisoners to the system, man! I mean woman. See? I've gone and been a patriarchy again. It's tough being a mass-produced product from the chauvinism factory, but not as tough as it is being a woman, obviously.

You know what slays me, though? The men who are stronger supporters of feminism than women, they not really realizing that white knighting the entire thing for the victimized women is really just the same bullshit they pretend they're fighting.

Tat displays Monique being victimized, there are no strong female characters except for Blue, who works for the goddamned patriarchy anyway, and they need to be saved somehow. Yes, Monique's being saved by Glossy in the comic, who is a girl, but it's Tat, a man, writing the stupid script to save his female characters from being oppressed by men.

I keep coming back to this, but if Tat doesn't want his female characters to be oppressed, why doesn't he give them a fair shot in his story and stop oppressing them?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup
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daveshan



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with pretty much everything Ashland said in that last post.

Adyon wrote:

I mean, a lot of porn is just violent towards women. Probably because the only people that had the notion to actually FILM porn, were the types to like that kind of emotion. Where as a lot more people have been trying to change that industry into something more watchable by all. I think that's why the "Girls Gone Wild" was so popular, besides the fact that it was slightly more real. (slightly) But because there's a bunch of guys that can't be aroused by the dehumanization of women that occurs in so much porn.

And that stuff brings people up with bad ideas of what a real physical relationship should be about. I know I've seen artwork that could be considered porn that was attractive, because it represented actual sexual experiences. Or just call it lovemaking I guess instead of sex. Something. Anyway, like-wise I've come across my fair share of artwork that just made me grossed out at the way it seemed so gross and fake.

But the majority of the way porn was filmed for forever was negative towards women, and so many guys were brought up thinking they should treat women that way or being upset girls didn't want to be that way with them. When fantasy hurts reality, you get problems.


Allow me to explain something: To me, the only difference between a man and a woman is that men have penises, women have vaginas, and everything that occurs directly because of those different reproductive organs. People are people first and then they are a gender/skin color/religion/nationality/etc. I hate women's sports leagues because I view them as telling females "You're not as good as men and never will be. Don't try, just have this bone we're throwing you."

Doors should be held open by whoever gets there first. If I'm practicing martial arts, I will fight back as hard as I have to regardless of gender. I value opinions and input solely on the person's credentials and confidence. I have no problems sharing my feelings and talking about the emotional problems I have to someone I trust.

That being said, I LOVE porn and erotic stories that degrade women. Whether it's physically with beatings, chokings, and gagging or emotionally by making the woman think that she's in love with the man and he's just using her, making her try to justify rape as equaling love, or making her forever scared of something because it was used to violate her and she's too scared to tell anyone about it. Heck, I even like women exchanging sex for favors or submissiveness to powerful men at the expense of their dignity.

I'm not going to apologize. It's what gets me off. And a lot of girlfriends know I like to roleplay things like that. But I can separate fantasy from reality the same way people who get off on 'sissy' porn, where men are the ones degraded, can. I'm not going to whip or emotionally cripple anyone in real life. Even with sex, I know I can't do that without the other person or people being ok with it.

I'm making this rant that's probably tl;dr to let you know one thing: Don't worry about the violent porn. What you get off on and the way you treat people are two different things.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daveshan wrote:

That being said, I LOVE porn and erotic stories that degrade women. Whether it's physically with beatings, chokings, and gagging or emotionally by making the woman think that she's in love with the man and he's just using her, making her try to justify rape as equaling love, or making her forever scared of something because it was used to violate her and she's too scared to tell anyone about it. Heck, I even like women exchanging sex for favors or submissiveness to powerful men at the expense of their dignity.


Why am I not surprised.
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daveshan



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
daveshan wrote:

That being said, I LOVE porn and erotic stories that degrade women. Whether it's physically with beatings, chokings, and gagging or emotionally by making the woman think that she's in love with the man and he's just using her, making her try to justify rape as equaling love, or making her forever scared of something because it was used to violate her and she's too scared to tell anyone about it. Heck, I even like women exchanging sex for favors or submissiveness to powerful men at the expense of their dignity.


Why am I not surprised.


I love how you quoted that and said "Why am I not surprised" while avoiding quoting this:
daveshan wrote:
To me, the only difference between a man and a woman is that men have penises, women have vaginas, and everything that occurs directly because of those different reproductive organs.


And this:

daveshan wrote:
People are people first and then they are a gender/skin color/religion/nationality/etc.


And this:

daveshan wrote:
I hate women's sports leagues because I view them as telling females "You're not as good as men and never will be. Don't try, just have this bone we're throwing you."


This:

daveshan wrote:
Doors should be held open by whoever gets there first. If I'm practicing martial arts, I will fight back as hard as I have to regardless of gender.


Also this:

daveshan wrote:
I value opinions and input solely on the person's credentials and confidence.


This:

daveshan wrote:
I have no problems sharing my feelings and talking about the emotional problems I have to someone I trust.


This:

daveshan wrote:
I'm not going to apologize. It's what gets me off. And a lot of girlfriends know I like to roleplay things like that.


This:

daveshan wrote:
But I can separate fantasy from reality the same way people who get off on 'sissy' porn, where men are the ones degraded, can. I'm not going to whip or emotionally cripple anyone in real life.




And, finally, this:

daveshan wrote:
What you get off on and the way you treat people are two different things.



Oh, wait. Did I say that I loved how you did that? I'm sorry. I meant to say that it was really shallow and pathetic of you to blow off my entire argument and just take one part of it completely out of context to make me look bad.
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: *sigh* Reply with quote

daveshan wrote:

But isn't that the same as anyone and cigarettes or alcohol? And porn doesn't leave you with any physical problems.

Plus, porn helps curb a lot of strong sexual desires into a manageable outlet. I'm not going to lie, there were plenty of times I would've had sex before I was ready if I wasn't able to masturbate. I know women who have said the same thing. Also, many couples get each other warmed up for sex by watching porn.

I'm saying all this because it goes back to why I didn't like Glossy at all until two days ago. She just seems to only see one side of everything and insist everyone come to her side of things.

If tobacco and alcohol cause you to treat other groups people as inferior, as well as cause emotional harm to yourself, perhaps you should stop those too.

I see you have also employed the age old "but how else are we supposed to safely work out our sexual desires to if we can't look at some women being degraded for our benefit" argument. Maybe if you were defending the .001% of porn and porn use that does not degrade women you'd have point, but otherwise, porn is currently one of those things supporting the oppression of women.
Ashland wrote:

It's an intangible concept. It's abstract. It's whatever you think it is. Tat thinks it's... something. I don't know what the hell he actually believes it is, but apparently the best way to fight it is to shave your head and accept you're a victim to it. Also it has something to do with porn, which Tat's particular kind of feminism says is very bad... somehow. For women. And men.

Recognizing something hurts you and trying to make it stop hurting you is a bad thing?
Quote:
Yes, a lot of the dedicated fans here on the forum are in support of it, but a lot of the dedicated fans appear to be motherfucking insane, insecure people who would openly sit down and explain their entire family planning strategy to the board because they're sure it proves they aren't "propagating patriarchy". And that lets them be accepted by the board!

Anyone that says they aren't propagating patriarchy is just plain wrong. Also, this is super-duper-ultra-heavy-duty straw feminism you're propping up to knock down here.
Quote:

Tat displays Monique being victimized, there are no strong female characters except for Blue,

Monique is one of the strongest women in the comic at the moment for actually standing up to things instead of bending backwards to patriarchy like she has in the past despite the uncertainty of what will happen now that she isn't kowtowing to mainstream (read: patriarchal) culture.

I'm laughing pretty hard at the rest of your post by the way. I probably shouldn't, but I can't help myself because you're blowing that anti-feminist "victim" dogwhistle so hard.
daveshan wrote:

Allow me to explain something: To me, the only difference between a man and a woman is that men have penises, women have vaginas, and everything that occurs directly because of those different reproductive organs. People are people first and then they are a gender/skin color/religion/nationality/etc. I hate women's sports leagues because I view them as telling females "You're not as good as men and never will be. Don't try, just have this bone we're throwing you."

Excuse me while I go tell women that job discrimination because they are considered a pregnancy risk despite not being able to get pregnant that it's entirely because of the fact that women get pregnant that they receive less pay and promotions. And that their lack of social connections because they are not invited to the manager meetings in strip clubs (true story) is entirely justified by the fact that they have a vagina. And that men groping women in public transit (very common) is all ok because men can't control themselves. And...
Quote:

That being said, I LOVE porn and erotic stories that degrade women. Whether it's physically with beatings, chokings, and gagging or emotionally by making the woman think that she's in love with the man and he's just using her, making her try to justify rape as equaling love, or making her forever scared of something because it was used to violate her and she's too scared to tell anyone about it. Heck, I even like women exchanging sex for favors or submissiveness to powerful men at the expense of their dignity.

I'm not going to apologize. It's what gets me off. And a lot of girlfriends know I like to roleplay things like that. But I can separate fantasy from reality the same way people who get off on 'sissy' porn, where men are the ones degraded, can. I'm not going to whip or emotionally cripple anyone in real life. Even with sex, I know I can't do that without the other person or people being ok with it.

I'm making this rant that's probably tl;dr to let you know one thing: Don't worry about the violent porn. What you get off on and the way you treat people are two different things.

Nice to meet yet another man that unapologetically thinks women being beaten, raped and exploited is the sexiest and funnest thing to watch. That positive correlation and desire to see those things certainly has absolutely no effect whatsoever at all ever on your treatment of women in real life at anytime. That desire certainly and absolutely has not been at all shaped by how society today treats and thinks of women either. Nope, no effects what-so-ever.


Last edited by Kylra on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the reason this part is so strong is because it speaks louder than the rest of what you said.
daveshan wrote:
I'm not going to apologize. It's what gets me off. And a lot of girlfriends know I like to roleplay things like that. But I can separate fantasy from reality the same way people who get off on 'sissy' porn, where men are the ones degraded, can. I'm not going to whip or emotionally cripple anyone in real life. Even with sex, I know I can't do that without the other person or people being ok with it.


The whole thing here is that you talk about there being no difference, but you refer to that as "sissy" porn. You say it like that making it sound like BDSM on a girl is normal where the other is a fetish.

Quote:
I'm making this rant that's probably tl;dr to let you know one thing: Don't worry about the violent porn. What you get off on and the way you treat people are two different things.


If that were true in every case, you wouldn't have so many cases of it happening in reality. I don't care whether you can or can't control yourself, if it really doesn't affect your interactions as you claim. You say it like that and it's just not the case. Many people DO allow their fetishes to affect their actions.

And I myself am not going to rally against porn like that existing or not even. It's not my shtick. The problem and what should change in my oppinion, is that the idea of women being "violently f*cked" like they don't matter is considered "normal" pornography like it's natural to be that way. It shouldn't be that someone would watch porn not knowing, because the industry thinks its "natural". Because while you will argue it doesn't, people are affected by that and will be likely to believe that's more "natural" in reality too. I'm not going to argue about people's desire to watch that kind of porn, even if I don't like it, as I'm a pretty "freedom" oriented person. But, I do however have problems with an industry's idea of what is normal.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:

daveshan wrote:
I'm not going to apologize. It's what gets me off. And a lot of girlfriends know I like to roleplay things like that. But I can separate fantasy from reality the same way people who get off on 'sissy' porn, where men are the ones degraded, can. I'm not going to whip or emotionally cripple anyone in real life. Even with sex, I know I can't do that without the other person or people being ok with it.


The whole thing here is that you talk about there being no difference, but you refer to that as "sissy" porn. You say it like that making it sound like BDSM on a girl is normal where the other is a fetish.


Yeah, that part of what he said fucking disgusts me too.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't address any of those other "points" because it's pretty much patent bullshit, nearly every post you make is full of sexist thought, so it was unsurprising to me that you might like the more misogynistic hateful side of the porn industry.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Yeah man, BDSM is fantastic no matter which gender the sub happens to be.



Let us separate the context of BDSM from this

Quote:
or emotionally by making the woman think that she's in love with the man and he's just using her, making her try to justify rape as equaling love, or making her forever scared of something because it was used to violate her and she's too scared to tell anyone about it


Shall we?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. They are not the same. At all. Someone else brought it up.

When people talk about purposefully emotionally scarring people, I stop associating with those people. No exceptions. One time someone I had been somewhat friendly with starting going on and on about it. After that, when I was alone, I went and cried for about an hour. I'm quite touchy about that kind of thing.

Never talked to that bastard again.
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