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2012-06-28: What Did I Do?
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BUT HIGH SCHOOL IS THE BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE
THAT'S WHAT THE HIGH-SCHOOL PEEPS TOLD ME
BACK WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL

THE BEST YEARS
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Laci Green basically sums it up nicely.

Yeah, she's pretty convincing, and she does have good points, albeit most of it is just a problem that it's all just Stephanie Meyer's fantasy. While there's a lot of good points, I feel that it's manipulative in trying to make it extra controlling. Granted, he often was pushy and over-protective. I'll give you that, but if he generally did everything because he legitimely wanted to help her, it changes from him being abusive and more badly handeling the situation. Granted Bella should be sticking up for herself more and having more of a saying, but as an artist and writer, I feel Stephanie Meyer implied she did, but just failed at writing it. Like I said, bad writing. It was just too much of a fantasy, and she didn't bother to think about what she was actually writing. Thus why I think the next part exists...
Kylra wrote:
The only reason the romance with the werewolf isn't clearly pedophilic and statutory rapey is because the baby conveniently grows really fast because she's a half-vampire baby.

I think once again it's just bad writing either way. She had a long series with devoted "Team Jacob" fans that she tried to appease by going, "See, Jacob wasn't even into Bella all along! Don't be pissed that I screwed him and put her with Edward!" It's just a cheap writing cop out that opened a can of worms.




But the problem with books like this is that they're just the writer's fantasy. So if they're fantasy could be a personal hell to somebody, that's what they're going to see. If his overprotective nature reeks of previous experiences of oppression, it's going to hit you like a truck and make you hate it. I was just discussing this with my wife for the last 20-30 minutes actually.

For instance for her, when she read them, she thought of me, and took anything Edward did as cute and protective. She didn't see any manipulative nature in him, as I'm not that way, and she's basing everything on me. It just is easy for her, since I'm kinda overly romantic and sappy or something like that. >.> On the other hand, we tried to watch the "Game of Thrones" series on TV, and she was alienated by just the first episode's obsession with portrayal of women and what's happening to them. (And since I'd already read it got much...MUCH worse as the series went along, that didn't help its case.)

I think for a poorly written story like Twilight, people see what they want to see, and it has little influence on people's minds. That's why so many either hate it or love it. You can blame it on how much patriarachy influence has already been on them, or at the least, say what interests they've developed through the influences in their life, but this book is so badly written it has very little WEIGHT so to speak. Even if it is negative, at the very least, this book doesn't deserve the intense focus it receives for being negative toward women compared to books that actually do a good job of manipulating people's mindsets like the Wheel of Time series does with women or other similar books.


The only part of the story my wife uttery HATES is the whole pregnancy part and the way Bella goes from independent to "No I'll sacrifice myself for the baby". My wife hates...I mean HATES when people do that, especially in an irrational way she does here. But my wife also said, it's because she just can't understand the "enjoyment" some women get in wanting to bring life into the world. To her the process is a revolting thought, and the idea of having to be a woman and have other women ask her, "But don't you WANT a baby?" just driver he NUTS. She even likes kids, and went so far as thinking a kid version of me would be cute, but only if it could be somehow raised in a test tube. =P I feel after that I should mention as a conclusion to that story, we're not having kids, except by someday choosing to adopt once she's done with her Doctorate and we get settled and open a clinic for her.
Heretical Rants wrote:
BUT HIGH SCHOOL IS THE BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE
THAT'S WHAT THE HIGH-SCHOOL PEEPS TOLD ME
BACK WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL

THE BEST YEARS

I...actually enjoyed my years in High School. >.> But apparently our school was pretty awesome compared to other schools. At least while we were there, my class in particular pretty much set a standard for working together, no matter what types of misfits we were. =P I realize this isn't standard. Our Jr. High was hell though. So maybe we just matured and went through that shit earlier.
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Sudoku



Joined: 19 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was in high school, flipping tables and trolling teachers weren't even mainstream yet.




Cuz we're hipsters like that.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damnit, why did you guys start talking about Twilight when I was asleep.

My sister was also into Twilight, probably the same reasons as your wife Adyon, and loyally stuck with the first few books. But then the movie came out and the last few books - man, it was a complete 180. She told me she liked the sidecharacters and stuck around for them but it wasn't enough (can you imagine if people like your SIDEcharacters more? Oh vey).

To me, Bella and Edward are terrible examples of how people in a relationship should behave. I don't know about Jacob as I really couldn't be arsed to read the books (everything I heard is via via) but when someone told me he would go out with Bella's daughter I was like: ew? Ew much?

I have no grudge against vampires or sparkles, but the romances are just terrible. Even Stephen King said her writing is terrible.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wife's sister was actually big into it as well, and originally we saw the movie before anything, because she dragged us to it. After, my wife grabbed the books to read and see for herself with all the hype and went straight through them, so she got one immediate run through, deciding after it was entertaining. Not the best writing or anything, but entertaining.

The only thing that ever really came out of her reading that, that was hilarious was when an anime convention we went to selling art, she saw their was a "Twilight Debate Panel" that she decided to go to. She ended up going, and upon someone talking to her, they asked her to participate in to argue the side of the books. I guess there was some huge girl there that had been pretty big like the video linked before by SamSally and was brought to that debate to be against the books. Well...my wife, thanks to her "mad debate skills" pretty much reasoned everything the girl said into submission.

I guess it was pretty funny, because she was so well known for debating the subject, and my wife whom had barely read the books, found reasoning for each complaint she had that took over the audience. We kept having people come up to our booth while selling art later going "Hey, you're that girl that won the Twilight panel, right?" It was pretty hilarious. I don't think they expected anyone on the side of the books to have any speaking and debating skills. I wish I'd have seen it, even though my wife pretty much recounted the whole thing to me as she enjoyed trouncing someone that supposedly was an expert with a basic knowledge of the books. She even would quote the book, as she verges on a eidetic memory sometimes. She actually got the other girl so pissed off that she threw insults at them...And my wife just said, "I think when you fall down on insults to get your point across, you've lost the argument." Apparently she got a standing ovation for that. =P But yeah, wish I could have actually seen it. >.>




But I do wonder sometimes what constitutes the parts of relationships between them that most people consider the worst. I do know my wife and I are a lot like that it seems. By that I mean, overly sappy and kind of obsessed with one another to a point we'd have trouble functioning without each other. I know some people would argue such a level of attachment / devotion between people is unhealthy anyway.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
But I do wonder sometimes what constitutes the parts of relationships between them that most people consider the worst. I do know my wife and I are a lot like that it seems. By that I mean, overly sappy and kind of obsessed with one another to a point we'd have trouble functioning without each other. I know some people would argue such a level of attachment / devotion between people is unhealthy anyway.


My boyfriend and I are a lot like that though. The thing that really got to me was that at some point Edward apparantly leaves Bella and when she tries to just live a normal life he pops up in a creepy fashion over and over. There is obsession and then there's plain domination. I love my boyfriend, I can't live without him but damn I won't get all IN HIS FACE if he interacts with other women or has hobbies that aren't mine.

To me a relationship is not only about wanting to be with each other, but also giving each other space to breathe when we need it. And I don't really feel like Edward is giving Bella this 'space'.

But again, didn't read the books, could be totally wrong. Your wife is more than welcome to correct me here as she has read them all.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually read all the books. I even enjoyed them until some of the nastier implications sunk in (well, okay, until the fourth one where the sci-fi alien baby factor made me have to seriously re-evaluate). Possibly because I was in a really manipulative and controlling relationship at the time and I didn't see what was wrong with it until shit hit the fan a year or so later.

Thing is, Adyon, people don't (usually) walk into a relationship going "I'm gunna manipulate and abuse the hell out of this person to make them do what I want!" because it -isn't- a conscious thought. It's usually one of those things people don't even realize they're doing, they just want a result and they say and do the things they think will get the results they want. Sometimes they don't realize how much they're hurting the other person when they do it. Sometimes they do and then keep doing it anyway because the end result is more important to them than the person they're hurting.

Plus, it really doesn't help when we have shitty literature like this that goes a step further and glorifies it as love.

I dunno, I think those books are poison to healthy relationships. Nothing in them should be admirable or something other people should try to emulate.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is true that it would be a type of abusive relationship to try to get into one where your life is going to be dominated by creatures thinking you're a weak character, but the reason I didn't feel that stuff was probably due to knowing the characters weren't that way. If Edward had been anything besides a love-sick puppy throughout the whole thing, I'd have been more on board. But to me, it just reminds me of the situations that can occur where the relationship seems abusive, but the people are not. But because one thing Stephanie Meyer drove home...over...and over...and freaking over...was that Edward was just nothing but in love, was in pain at the idea of hurting her, practically wanted to kill himself every-time something happened to her. Not that he didn't pressure her into things, like Prom, etc, but I think overall I think there was just give and take there. Not to mention the author wanting to have them go to Prom, but thinking it would break whatever weak character she'd built for Bella who's shown pretty stubborn frequently. =P Even the whole, Edward fighting his nature to suck her blood, because for some reason when she came in the room for the first time, her blood smelled so much sweeter than anyone else's ever had...and apparently there's some weird thing where every once and awhile some human has the perfect blood to a vampire that it's like a delicacy, where obviously Meyer was just wanting to play up that "He's so perfect" angle just a little bit more, that he can resist nirvana because of his feelings for her.

I guess I just can't see them that way, and while my wife sees them as pretty bad writing, she says she still sees them as cheesy overly in-love characters that are kinda cute. But that last book, she hasn't even seen the next to last movie due to hating Bella turning into the "Gotta protect the baby" type so suddenly. And all the grotesque stuff that happened. My wife has given up that these types of girls are everywhere though. She thought the doctoral students at her school would be different, but even there, so many of the women there even are just completely obsessed with having a kid someday, and that things like non-epidurals and such are SO much healthier, etc. She was frustrated for awhile, and eventually was like..."I think I'm just alone in this". She's okay with being different though, and that's all I want for her. To feel happy with herself.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't see where he gave anything. You say give and take, and it implies that they actually did something on Bella's terms -ever- when they really, really didn't. -Everything- was on his terms.

Like, I've seen some creeps do some pretty shitty stuff in the name of love. I'm just getting sick of the 'he's so in love' excuse because it doesn't fly in real life and it shouldn't fly in literature.

Abuse is abuse, it doesn't matter what your reason is. Bella called absolutely no shots in that relationship. She happily skipped along to whatever he said, and if she was reluctant she was talked into it anyway and happy about the results later. It's just creepy as shit. It sets completely unrealistic expectations for basic relationships.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus he spends the whole series treating her like a child. Oh, he wants to do something and she doesn't? Just pick her up and throw her over your shoulder. Infantilization: now in True Romance flavor!
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm just going to turn it over to my wife, as I don't get how to say anything here like she would so...Yeah:

Just about every nice thing Edward tried to do, she protested and got her way in some way or another. Almost every activity they do is simply whatever she wants them to do. But Meyer specifically writes in every time Edward gets his way, but never does when Bella gets hers. The times he argued and it feels like manipulation can not be really bad if he really is trying to only look out for her. If my husband tells me to do something like eat when I haven't eaten all day he's just worried about me, even when I don't feel hungry.

It's not that I see him as abusive, but rather bossy. Like how he told her to drink in the first book was him worrying that if she went into shock, he didn't think he could handle things like mouth to mouth for shock and was freaking out in his head the whole time. This is all from the Midnight Sun book of course, where it's from Edward's POV. But her lack of writing had Edward being this way without people knowing. And that the mysterious sexiness he presented was what was appealing to the author. He does look out for her ALL the time though, and being bossy does seem to be a trait of his, but I'm pretty bossy in our relationship. People never have a problem when the girl is the bossy one. But bossy is definitely different than abusive. And I think it was the negative personality trait she tried to give him so he would make him better by not being perfect.

But I'm not going to convince you of anything, as because as Bella has no true personality, you're going to see her in your own way. So people that have gone through abusive/manipulative relationships will see it that way. Almost every person I ever talked to that saw him that way had been in that relationship. I think it's how you didn't see it that way until you'd been through it. The book is just a cheap book that people project themselves on. It's not a good book. But I do not think it can actually make someone think an abusive relationship sounds good. And either way, I don't believe it was Edward's fault for how little Bella had no opinion. It's the author's for writing her as a blank slate, but not the man's because he actually has an opinion.

Some seriously masculine shit is stuff like Cresley Cole. Those guys make Edward look like a little kitten.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and Dogen posted...Oh, and this isn't my wife anymore.

Yeah that's true...albeit I think my wife is right, that even if that is the case, it's just that the book is bad, not that Edward himself seems to be. I think the author just wrote things to string together enough plot to show Edward being romantic over and over.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys. i love you all.

but if this thread turns into 30 pages on sexism and twilight, for god's sake, i am going to hunt you down and kill you all. slowly and painfully.





i'll do it by making you read the entire 'dudebro' thread. don't think i won't.
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Oneponytoruleall



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
guys. i love you all.

but if this thread turns into 30 pages on sexism and twilight, for god's sake, i am going to hunt you down and kill you all. slowly and painfully.


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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh hell no, for one, my wife isn't the type to stay in it, as it's rare to make her want to do something like this and debate, at least through typing...and I don't care about the books. =P I was just enjoying the debate.
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