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2012-06-28: What Did I Do?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that Bella must have suffered head trauma in a missing prologue (because she seems to often forget to breathe, eat, or drink without being told) is also a problem. Even if she's bossy (and I'm not certain I agree with that), she's utterly helpless and vacillates between almost getting killed and whining. That she's surrounded by supernatural creatures that are more powerful than her seems like a convenient plot device to make her a damsel in distress. Reasoning with Vampires is, without a doubt, the best thing to have ever come out of the Twilight series.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you actually nailed it. That's one of my big problems with it; it glorifies the fact that Bella has almost no personality at all. Like that's somehow an appealing thing to be? Too many really awful romance stories do that, the woman is just there and the man drives the whole story. This one was even written from the woman's point of view and she STILL didn't have a personality.

I'm still not seeing where she ever got to call the shots, either. Like, she wanted to have sex with him. The ONLY reason she got that was because he said he would, but only if she went to prom and they got married (neither of which she really seemed to want to do). Doesn't that seem lopsided? It sure does to me.

(Also dear god, we're dredging up some old memories here for me, I may get stuff wrong if we go into any sort of depth. Anyway, I also just want to say, I'm seriously just arguing this for fun. It's not that I don't believe what I'm saying, but the nuances of twilight are really not something I plan to get overly worked up about.)
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Reasoning with Vampires:

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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I think you actually nailed it. That's one of my big problems with it; it glorifies the fact that Bella has almost no personality at all. Like that's somehow an appealing thing to be?


A protagonist without a personality better facilitates the self-insertion of the reader and their own personality.

I think that's part of the mechanics behind people actually liking this shit, anyway.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Samsally wrote:
I think you actually nailed it. That's one of my big problems with it; it glorifies the fact that Bella has almost no personality at all. Like that's somehow an appealing thing to be?


A protagonist without a personality better facilitates the self-insertion of the reader and their own personality.

I think that's part of the mechanics behind people actually liking this shit, anyway.


I call shenanigans. My favorite book series involves a protagonist so determined to kill off an entire race of people it takes seven books to convince him otherwise. He had personality in spades and it sure wasn't anything like my personality.

Dogen wrote:
Reasoning with Vampires is, without a doubt, the best thing to have ever come out of the Twilight series.


Hahahahahahaohgod. Now I'm sitting at work giggling weirdly.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
Samsally wrote:
I think you actually nailed it. That's one of my big problems with it; it glorifies the fact that Bella has almost no personality at all. Like that's somehow an appealing thing to be?


A protagonist without a personality better facilitates the self-insertion of the reader and their own personality.

I think that's part of the mechanics behind people actually liking this shit, anyway.


I call shenanigans. My favorite book series involves a protagonist so determined to kill off an entire race of people it takes seven books to convince him otherwise. He had personality in spades and it sure wasn't anything like my personality.


come now, I'm not saying people with good taste like vacuous protagonists, here
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, well shit, I don't even know how to respond to that.

Thanks, I guess?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea whether you have good taste in literature or not, actually, but preferring a vacuous character is clearly poor taste
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have horrible taste, honestly. Don't ruin this moment, though.
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Wheel



Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPNqub966Tw

If I were a zombie. Twisted Evil
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading through Reasoning with Vampires (because shit, my job gets boring in the summer) and I've been convinced that Bella does sometimes stand up for herself! Like that thing where she kept sneaking off to see Jacob! And then Edward retaliated by breaking her truck!

...

Heh.
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cixelsyD



Joined: 09 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheel wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPNqub966Tw

If I were a zombie. Twisted Evil



Heh, that was a cute song.
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Vishaing



Joined: 27 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Wheel: Ahem
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Reading through Reasoning with Vampires (because shit, my job gets boring in the summer) and I've been convinced that Bella does sometimes stand up for herself! Like that thing where she kept sneaking off to see Jacob! And then Edward retaliated by breaking her truck!

...

Heh.

Yeah, and I remember them often hanging out on her terms, but you're right that pretty much all the big things plot things in the book like sex were on his terms. Though arguably that one strikes a nerve with me that it should be that way, as sex should always be on the grounds of the person who is less eager, just because.

But yeah, I think Heretical Rants is pretty right about Bella just being a cheap protagonist to be cast upon. And that's why I argue some people see it worse than it is, because it's easy to see the fact that she has no personality as Edward over-powering her. My only argument the whole time was that the character doesn't suck, the books do. xD

I'm very strange because I will find the weirdest things to defend. I'm defending a non-existent character just because he takes all the flack for what's wrong with the books as a whole. O_O
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh god, don't get me wrong. The whole story is a problem. Bella is totally shitty to all of her friends (even Jacob) for basically the entirety of the books.

You really won't win me over to Edward not being a manipulative bastard though. Just read through Reasoning with Vampires for a while, she points out lots of examples of how he's manipulative and controlling.
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