welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

BETTING ENDS! SCOTUS Upholds Healthcare Reform
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More interesting food for thought: was Justice Roberts actually writing a conservative opinion, that just happened to have a liberal result?

Kinda hits the "traitor!" bit coming from Repubs, with the underlying theme that Roberts' primary loyalty is to the rule of law. Also hits on the "ruling on a technicality" issue.
_________________
“Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation”
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2675
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my country, all hospitals are government property supported by our taxes. So whether you're rich or not, you will get the same type of care. There are of course care specialists which are expensive but good. The great thing about this is that if a poor person has a good reason to go to him (rare disease or whatnot), then he will receive a certain amount of money from our government for it.

We also have a big comittee devoted to having the best kind of medical quality in all our hospitals (because mistakes still get made and sometimes for no reason). The hospitals themselves compete for the best reputation because it means more people go to them and the government rewards them for that.

One of the complaints some people in my country have is that they don't like paying for others, especially when they themselves never need medical care. But I've been to Africa. I've seen some terrible things. I'd rather pay and have someone benefit from my money than having to watch a mutilated child on the street beg for money.

I'll go back to my corner now before I spout more Dutch things that may or may not be true when our goverment is re-elected in a few months.
_________________
Help. Help, my eyes are stuck from rolling so hard. Help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6394

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
I'd rather pay and have someone benefit from my money than having to watch a mutilated child on the street beg for money.


I remember when the occupy movement was still a big deal (what happened to that, anyway?) and all the blogs came out with people in situations very similar to mine saying "I'm not the 99%, my mom and dad worked their ass off and freedom, america, blerblerbler, sob story, i've had everything handed to me because my parents worked hard and i shouldn't have to give my money to anybody who's currently working hard because obviously they aren't trying hard enough."

I hate those people. Mostly because I see my own situation in their lives and it taught me to 1) appreciate the hell out of my parents and 2) try to help people who aren't as lucky cuz not everybody had such an awesome set of parents to help them get a reasonable start on life.

I want to know how they missed #2.
_________________
Samsally the GrayAce
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17125
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they miss #2 either because they are lazy, or they don't want to admit how close they really are to the edge. unless you are sitting on a huge wad of cash, one emergency situation can send you deeply into debt. and just about anyone can lose their job, even if they are hard-working - just ask all the people who got thrown out of work when the company they worked for went bankrupt, or shut down, or moved operations to another country. you don't want to look too close at those lazy beggars, you might see someone who looks a lot like you.

that's the thing that really annoys me. these people are _so_ sure that nothing bad can happen to them or theirs, that they are just completely different from the all the poor unemployed folk, they are just that special. and they aren't. and it just makes sense to build a good safety net, because you never know when you might need one.

Yinello wrote:
Him wrote:
Just saying.


I'm confused by this article. It's only at the end that he says Oh the public hates public healthcare so now Obama is in trouble. From what source does he grab that? Is there really a grand majority that hates public healthcare or is that something the Republicans keep saying?


well, yes and no. if you ask people whether they support the Affordable Care Act, a large number say no (but it isn't a huge majority).

however, if you ask them individually about the parts of the ACA, they like them.

so most of what the polls show you is that a lot of people really don't know what they are talking about.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4181
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the parts? Because "socialist Obamacare"-scare aside there are many legit problems with the ACA: http://firedoglake.com/fdl-fact-sheet-the-truth-about-the-health-care-bill/
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not exactly an unbiased link, there... a quick scan shows several blatant "myth: _____. Fact: something unrelated" strawmen
_________________
“Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation”
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4895
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, are you suggesting that Him is using shit sources to get preachy about Youessian politics?

Well I never!
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point.
_________________
“Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation”
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:

I remember when the occupy movement was still a big deal (what happened to that, anyway?)


Basically what willem and him bit my head off for saying would happen, offering no coherent plan of action it slowly degenerated away into various fringe causes (homelessness in eugene) with mixed success in implementing any real change and next to no change in wall street.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4181
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Wait, are you suggesting that Him is using shit sources to get preachy about Youessian politics?

Well I never!
why did you feel compelled to use that weak diversion pre-emptively? Save your ad hominems and strawmen for when you're actually debating. Oh right. You don't. So you think my sources are wrong? Well may I suggest you read them first, because I doubt you have. If you still find them weak, please try and explain why. It's called making an argument. Communist Trees: unbiased? Maybe not. False? not really.
_________________
A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want? ~Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4895
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no interest in reading anything you link or debating anything with you Him, you've proven time and again that it's a fool's errand. I was simply amused by CTrees reaction.
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Basically what willem and him bit my head off for saying would happen, offering no coherent plan of action it slowly degenerated away into various fringe causes (homelessness in eugene) with mixed success in implementing any real change and next to no change in wall street.

I never said Occupy Wall Street would succeed. IIRC, my argument was that it was your kind of cynicism combined with the spinelessness of your average liberal which would kill it. hth
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4895
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all fairness, I don't think any amount of optimism or vertebrae could have saved it. From day one the Occupy movement was co-opted by a million fringe groups with a million (often contradictory) objectives and ideals. Crazy Joe the Gold Cultist and Conspiracy Theory Jim the Trustifarian both had exactly the same claim to the movement as Sane Sally the Reformist.

The logistics, focus, and clarity of purpose that were required for Occupy to affect any real change simply never developed, and in fact they were seen as anathema by many people in the movement because having it reeked too much of "politics as usual."
_________________
The older I get, the more certain I become of one thing. True and abiding cynicism is simply a form of cowardice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's just the type of cynicism I was talking about. It was seen as politics as usual. It was immediately depicted as ineffectual, scattered, unfocused and weak. You could literally see this happen. Now, movements like this thrive on the amount of mass they can attain. They need to attract large crowds or they die. They need hundreds of thousand of people to drown out the crazies and to have an impact. That's the kind of optimism that's needed. First you have to think that it might work - so ditching the cynicism - and then you have to actually join in. But people didn't - or they didn't stick it out - because it was 'ineffectual, scattered, unfocused and weak'. And because they didn't, this became reality. That's the power of ideas for you.

But as I said, it's also the liberal spinelessness that caused its downfall. Because instead of responding to these depictions and asserting itself, OWS bent backwards to present itself as 'acceptable'. It did its best to avoid being called 'radical' or 'socialist' or whatever word the media came up with next. They weren't going to rock the boat too much, honest, guv'. But that's a weakness, right there. That's playing a loser's game. You can't win if you play by 'their' rules. I'm not saying that they should've gone straight to armed insurrection or something like that, but they needed a far more aggressive, a far more daring approach. They needed to challenge the media narrative aimed against them and challenge the media - and society - itself. But they didn't, so that's where we are now.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12141
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
But that's just the type of cynicism I was talking about. It was seen as politics as usual. It was immediately depicted as ineffectual, scattered, unfocused and weak.

It was ineffectual, scattered, unfocused, and weak. It's not a problem of perception when the perception is accurate.

Quote:
But people didn't - or they didn't stick it out - because it was 'ineffectual, scattered, unfocused and weak'. And because they didn't, this became reality.

It was reality from the start. That's why people described it as such.
You can't really get into an argument about Occupy unless you're willing to acknowledge this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group