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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: wasteland style
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 Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Allow me to rephrase:
It was presented as something that was all those things and could only stay that way. It was presented as something that wasn't worth getting involved in, because it wouldn't and couldn't matter. Every movement has to start somewhere, but it can't start if nobody believes it'll go anywhere.
By the way: The last thing I want is people thinking I'm one of those 'the media killed OWS' people, because that's oversimplifying it to an absurd level.
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WheelsOfConfusion
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Unknown Kaddath
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | Allow me to rephrase:
It was presented as something that was all those things and could only stay that way. It was presented as something that wasn't worth getting involved in, because it wouldn't and couldn't matter. Every movement has to start somewhere, but it can't start if nobody believes it'll go anywhere. |
So whose job was it to advocate that people get involved and lead it in a certain direction? |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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It wasn't meant as a piece of practical advice. I'm just pointing out why OWS fizzled out and what general trends caused this.
I mean, I know where you're driving this discussion and I'm not very keen on going there. I'll say something like 'whoever was involved' or 'unions, social groups, political groups, etc' and we'll probably end up in the neverending net of American exceptionalisms that come up every time this discussion is had.
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WheelsOfConfusion
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | It wasn't meant as a piece of practical advice. I'm just pointing out why OWS fizzled out and what general trends caused this. |
I think you're kind of dancing around the problem by saying it's something different while actually saying the same thing: this was a directionless demonstration from the start and all the people that tried to give it direction were going in different directions so nobody could have steered it onto one course. The people that "should have" done it were all doing it at odds with each other. |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6301
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'm saying that cynicism in society at large was a larger issue than the lack of direction within the movement itself. I'm saying that it never evolved past its roots - which were, granted, directionless - because of this cynicism. I mean, there's obviously more to it, but that's why I jumped on Monkey's neck back when it started.
To say it with a cliché: a movement's what you make of it.
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Him
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3833
Location: Strange planet
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Arc Tempest wrote: | | I have no interest in reading anything you link or debating anything with you Him, you've proven time and again that it's a fool's errand. I was simply amused by CTrees reaction. |
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WheelsOfConfusion
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I disagree, but I don't think we're going to settle this right now. Besides, we seem to be attracting Hims. |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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I honestly don't think it can even be settled without some serious research backing it anyway. It's just a shame, I guess. What is this thread about again?
edit: Healthcare?!
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Getting this back on topic, someone told me that Obamacare is basically the plan the GOP came up with during the 90s. So probably kinda bad in several ways. (which is basically what Him's link says?)
Any truth to that?
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WheelsOfConfusion
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | Getting this back on topic, someone told me that Obamacare is basically the plan the GOP came up with during the 90s. So probably kinda bad in several ways. (which is basically what Him's link says?)
Any truth to that? |
Pretty much. Back in Clinton administration when healthcare was facing a possible overhaul, this was their alternative to the Clinton initiative. The Clinton plan was based on mandating employer coverage of workers, and the Republican plan was based on an individual mandate. Now that it's the Obama administration's plan, the Republicans absolutely loathe it (in public). But they don't have anything to offer as a replacement this time. |
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CTrees
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Well they do. It's "America already has the best healthcare in the world! It doesn't need fixing-we're number one!" So yeah, replace with nothing, and ignore all facts.
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Basically what willem and him bit my head off for saying would happen, offering no coherent plan of action it slowly degenerated away into various fringe causes (homelessness in eugene) with mixed success in implementing any real change and next to no change in wall street. |
I never said Occupy Wall Street would succeed. IIRC, my argument was that it was your kind of cynicism combined with the spinelessness of your average liberal which would kill it. hth |
Don't blame others for the movements inability to form a coherent message. They weren't persuasive enough to build the mass they needed and their goals were almost universally rhetorical constructs rather than concrete things people could get behind.
Look at what mass movements have had an effect in the U.S. at least (as a victim of the U.S. School system im only marginally aware of such things in other countries) their messages were clear and there was a concrete goal.
Free the slaves
Women's suffrage
Civil Rights/end Jim crow
Get out of Vietnam.
If a movement lacks a concrete goal to move toward, and respectable leaders, it isn't very likely to achieve very much, and that's basically the situation Occupy found itself in. |
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Mindslicer
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1540
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CTrees wrote: | | Well they do. It's "America already has the best healthcare in the world! It doesn't need fixing-we're number one!" So yeah, replace with nothing, and ignore all facts. |
Not true. |
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Mizike
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 5084
Location: Iowa City
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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You are just precious.
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Him
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3833
Location: Strange planet
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| CTrees wrote: | | Well they do. It's "America already has the best healthcare in the world! It doesn't need fixing-we're number one!" So yeah, replace with nothing, and ignore all facts. |
if only the Democrats would stop stealing their politics...remind me, didn't that old left wing radical Richard Nixon also introduce a healthcare reform?
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'[Obama] is like a dog, running around biting peaceful people for no reason.' - Cristi Wang |
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