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2012-06-30 Meet Your New Master
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2760
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
You are quite obviously overestimating how much we affect on Tat's creative process. Specially considering the fact that you seem to believe that he amuses himself enormously on creating controversy and conflict amongst his very audience about his very work.

Artists don't do that. At least not for so long. There is nothing to gain there.


And you are quite obviously assuming things like I am. I've seen webcomic artists pull some crazy stunts. I'm not saying I'm right because I wouldn't know (nor would you), but it's not a possibility I'm going to dismiss.

In the end, if people don't like the current comics, they can just lay low, maybe look at other things, etc. There are plenty of comics that I found myself not liking the current plotline, but I don't usually say it because I see that others are enjoying it and it would be rude to demand a story change just for my own preferences. A comic is bound to dissapoint you at some point because everyone has different tastes.
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Wingcap



Joined: 09 Sep 2011
Posts: 161
Location: Advocating the Devil.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Help
I don't-
what *drowns in kittens*
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
And if people hadn't been making such a huge deal out of the fact that Tat decided to use feminism as a subject, he wouldn't have made so many comics about it.


You are not saying you are right but you seemed kinda convinced right there...

But that is not the point here, and that is kinda trivial anyway. There is something more important here.

I do not demand a direction change for the comic. Do not assume that, I am not in a fraction of a position of demanding it and I don't see myself wanting to demand anything from one of my favourite webcomic artists even if I was in any position to do it. Perhaps the wors thing that I posted that may imply something similar to demanding anything was that the comic was suffering because of x, of which I will now retract immediately since, as you said, I am not an universal reference of what is good.

There is this small, hopeful possibility that I could be suggesting a change of direction which I personally believe could result to be positive, but I really don't think Tat reads the forums, so that is not it either.

The main point of my post is to make people(including you, really, take no offence here please, though) understand why others are kinda displeased with recent comics, at times even backlashing in a kinda mean way towards their views because it is the closest thing they have to something to complain about.

I also kinda want to make people understand what makes them angry. It is not the views themselves. It is the overexposure and the fact that they are in a webcomic called Sinfest of all places. So yeah, they do also have a reason to be weirded out and/or annoyed by said overexposure, so please understand that.

And although I am pretty damn sure I am right about all of this, there is also this small chance that I am meddling in businesses that need no meddling with. Saying, people may be perfectly comfortable continuing to use this forum for the same old and boring feminist discussions triggered by a small webcomic that happened to have commentary and continuing to discuss it in which case nevermind me. And now that I think about it what the fuck was I attempting it is not like I will accomplish a mutual understanding by posting those opinions.

But one thing I certainly do not mean to do is to demand anything to anyone. That is authoritative and rude. I pride myself on being respectful.
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Sudoku



Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 206
Location: Malaysia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hush, little one.
Enjoy the comic strip before it drowns you in kittens.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1163
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand by my earlier assumptions I've made that while Tat is into feminism as well as many other social changes, he's only using the current situation as a plot point. It's exhausting keeping jokes fresh. An artist gets bored, believe me. Because of that, Tat somewhere along the line, started moving through plots, which have progressively got longer and longer. You shouldn't think of these comics as "purely about the message" as things that are moving a story along.

I know some people feel that he's just driving the point over and over again, but I think it's the same as how he established that Squig had a magic couch that flew when he got high or things like the Reality Zone. If you were to analyze those objectively, you'd see that often he did comics that just beat the same bush in different ways. In these feminism strips, he has a lot of material he can work with.

Heck. Some of them aren't being really affected by the feminism strips at all. There's some other plots spaced in, and I think he's just trying to find a way to make the comics fun for him to draw as much as entertain us. Just like the art changes, sometimes his storytelling goes through phases where he's playing with things and rolling with it until he's said all he wants to say. But sometimes saying it all in a way to get the arc over fast isn't very logical, nor is it often enjoyable.

The main people that REALLY get pissed about these just feel like they're being lectured, which is not really the case. If you're not biased, you can see he's treating it completely as plot. In the meantime, you do get to see angry pissed off people that don't realize why they're outing themselves.

It's no different than someone who was a little more uptight about their religion would have gotten a little frustrated with the comic's harping on certain issues. If they came on and complained that the religious comics were going on too much, we'd know what their problem was with. The same goes for the extremely angry people about the feminist comics.


Last edited by Adyon on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2760
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like you Leohan. This comic needs more reasonable forumites. Also I have run out of stuff to say.

So here are some more kittens.


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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1163
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kittens!
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
I stand by my earlier assumptions I've made that while Tat is into feminism as well as many other social changes, he's only using the current situation as a plot point.


I kinda disagree about this since as I said I don't believe a lot has been accomplished since the moment 'Nique joined the revolution. I tried to recap what happened later on this storyline and besides Glossy doing some cool things that may matter to her revolution but that we cannot grasp the effect of on a storytelling level, I do not feel a lot is happening, in contrast to, say, the time where we had a really strong focus on Crim and Fuchsia but we saw a progressive, albeit slow, progress and development in their feelings and development, which kept us effectively hooked up.

Feel free to prove me wrong on this one. I would actually love to be proved wrong on this one because it would mean there is a point of enjoyment I am missing.

Adyon wrote:
The main people that REALLY get pissed about these just feel like they're being lectured, which is not really the case.


Here, though, you may be completely right, and it is something that I ignored in my post. People in general dislike being lectured in their forms of entertainment... Although I am not sure if that is not, at least partially, the case. Perhaps not lecturing, but at least educating? ...Tatsuya will have to reveal his master plan to show if he had any further objectives here.

Yinello wrote:
I like you Leohan. This comic needs more reasonable forumites. Also I have run out of stuff to say.

So here are some more kittens.


Good to know ^^ I must applaud your civility as well. I may post more often now, I left about the time when discussions were about things like nature vs nurture of homosexuality. Those got really ugly at times and they made me not want to post any more. The forum seems far more civil right now.

Kittens are cool as well.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1163
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
I kinda disagree about this since as I said I don't believe a lot has been accomplished since the moment 'Nique joined the revolution. I tried to recap what happened later on this storyline and besides Glossy doing some cool things that may matter to her revolution but that we cannot grasp the effect of on a storytelling level, I do not feel a lot is happening, in contrast to, say, the time where we had a really strong focus on Crim and Fuchsia but we saw a progressive, albeit slow, progress and development in their feelings and development, which kept us effectively hooked up.

Feel free to prove me wrong on this one. I would actually love to be proved wrong on this one because it would mean there is a point of enjoyment I am missing.

When you look back at when Glossy was just more randomly there saying stuff with no point off and on when she'd just been introduced:

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4045

One, it was arguably only half a year, which is not long in the universe considering we've had TONS of other story-lines continuing while the Sisterhood has been doing their thing. But to some point, at her first introduction I think Glossy was meant as more a "anti-Slick" and even maybe that he was on the line of being a straw feminist in a humorous way, the same way Seymore is for his faith. I say that even more, because often the people he casts in those roles, he draws in their short stature style. But I think shortly with everything going on, he saw the possibility to run with it in a completely different direction, with the idea that the Sisterhood is the perfect opposite to Big D and his group instead.

But since then, besides Nique and Fushia getting motivated by the Sisterhood, I think mostly they've been kind of doing their own thing. It's overall less about feminism and more about the characters going through changes in identity.


http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4078

It only feels like he's driving feminism home if you're trying to look at it as a political message. Re-reading it with the thought that it's all a chain of events that was set in motion, it reads different. Nique has dealt a little more with feminism, but more to the point she's been trying for awhile to figure out what makes her happy. Pebbles and Lil' E started finding out about his past and exploring what he is without his hatred, etc. Crimney Fushia, Blue, and Storytime all kind of have their own thing going down. Big D is caught up in the midst of all of it trying to figure out what's going on himself, and all the while the Sisterhood is setting up to fight with him. We've been shown they are at odds with one another. http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4142 Meanwhile, through Slick randomly being Slick, he got himself bomfed and who knows what's coming there.

But most of the things people see as lecturing are just Tat keeping characters in the comic when there's no logical story-line for them without adding ANOTHER plot. Things like them telling Squig to get rid of his porn and him making little jokes. You'll notice that he hasn't or anything, but rather it was just a setup to a joke. It's only if you're trying to see the message as heavy handed that you miss that he's just continuing like he always was when the jokes were about religion or Slick not being able to get a date.

Meanwhile, it's only been half a year, and you underestimate how much random stuff has happened there, which is why the plot hasn't moved as much as you'd like, not because he's driving home the feminism point more than it needs to be.
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4158
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4166
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4215
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4246
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 2275
Location: 192.168.0.1

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

I do not demand a direction change for the comic. Do not assume that, I am not in a fraction of a position of demanding it and I don't see myself wanting to demand anything from one of my favourite webcomic artists even if I was in any position to do it. Perhaps the wors thing that I posted that may imply something similar to demanding anything was that the comic was suffering because of x, of which I will now retract immediately since, as you said, I am not an universal reference of what is good.

There is this small, hopeful possibility that I could be suggesting a change of direction which I personally believe could result to be positive, but I really don't think Tat reads the forums, so that is not it either.

And although I am pretty damn sure I am right about all of this, there is also this small chance that I am meddling in businesses that need no meddling with. Saying, people may be perfectly comfortable continuing to use this forum for the same old and boring feminist discussions triggered by a small webcomic that happened to have commentary and continuing to discuss it in which case nevermind me. And now that I think about it what the fuck was I attempting it is not like I will accomplish a mutual understanding by posting those opinions.


You're not demanding but you're annoyed enough at the lack of progress or change of topics that you feel like you have to express a written opinion about it.

You've been here long enough to know this happens anyway. Tat is known for, from time to times go the "safe", politically incorrect, topic. Maybe to get a hard on from forumites flaming one another; we're pretty good at that anyway.

Even if you're right about this being "swatting a fly with a cannon", it's Tat' cannon to use until he feels out of ammo. If anything can be said about Sinfest' societal topics is that it's often parochial, too US centered; that's my peeve anyway. The feminist issue in other parts of the world raise a lot of other questions only a few of us know enough or care about with sufficient data to back one's views that it's best left unexpressed.


Quote:
The main point of my post is to make people(including you, really, take no offence here please, though) understand why others are kinda displeased with recent comics, at times even backlashing in a kinda mean way towards their views because it is the closest thing they have to something to complain about.


I don't agree here. Those are hoping to get trollish type of reply in the vain hope of vindicating their own view, in a perverted form of way. They're not into sharing or asking for new viewpoints.

And really, meanness is an accepted form of communication in here.


Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I prefer to think of it as "outing douchebags".


Since when have you been the voice of reason around here?. Turn back the way you were you sniveling rat faced git!.
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Dawn



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 123
Location: Malaysia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own comment:

I LOL'd at today's comic. It is priceless and as Yinello said earlier, 'parodies' us pretty well.

Also drives home a pretty strong point. Such terminology develops after witnessing and compiling a pretty amazing number of incidents over the years, which needs a term of it's own to describe it. Most people would not be familiar with such terminology and would likely accept the situations and actions they describe as 'normal'.

Unfortunately terminology can be confusing and thus loses its impact on it's intended audience (men and women whose minds and attitudes needs to be changed). Using such terms is like a scientist speaking to a layperson - it elicits a 'whut?'

Without initial interest, especially after the use of 'whut' terminology, we'd never get our points across to the regular person who doesn't think of such concepts.

Great way to point it out Tat. If that wasn't your intention I apologize, but it is my interpretation. <3
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daveshan



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:

When you look back at when Glossy was just more randomly there saying stuff with no point off and on when she'd just been introduced:

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4045

One, it was arguably only half a year, which is not long in the universe considering we've had TONS of other story-lines continuing while the Sisterhood has been doing their thing. But to some point, at her first introduction I think Glossy was meant as more a "anti-Slick" and even maybe that he was on the line of being a straw feminist in a humorous way, the same way Seymore is for his faith. I say that even more, because often the people he casts in those roles, he draws in their short stature style. But I think shortly with everything going on, he saw the possibility to run with it in a completely different direction, with the idea that the Sisterhood is the perfect opposite to Big D and his group instead...


I didn't quote the entire post, because it was far too long.

The difference between then and now is that, back then, he took a week or two to introduce Glossy, give her character some background, and then moved on to his other characters. I'm not mad that he wants to get a message across, it's when he does nothing but try to get a message across that irks me.

Also, if he had tied up loose ends (Lil' E's memory and flashbacks, Zombie boy finding some kind of home, Slick coming to terms with himself, Satan's decision of what to do with Fuschia, etc) I'd be ok with the feminist storyline going on for longer than usual. But he has all these other interesting storylines, but wasting his time on one that's really boring to me and many others on this forum.

Hopefully, tomorrow's big Sunday strip will show that next week is going to be about one of those plotlines he still has.


Side note: A lot of people are saying that if you don't like the way Sinfest is going, to just leave (some have been nicer in their wording than others). However, if I just leave and never let Tat know what I think, he's going to think that his whole audience loves this kind of story and won't change back. If I stay, I can convince him that this isn't a good story and he'll go back to writing the kind of strips that make me laugh and the stories that keep me enthralled.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6503

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daveshan wrote:
However, if I just leave and never let Tat know what I think, he's going to think that his whole audience loves this kind of story and won't change back.


And you don't think the people telling you to leave know that? That's probably at least part of their reasoning in saying as such to you. Many of us enjoy the current strips.
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cixelsyD



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:


Good to know ^^ I must applaud your civility as well. I may post more often now, I left about the time when discussions were about things like nature vs nurture of homosexuality. Those got really ugly at times and they made me not want to post any more. The forum seems far more civil right now.

Kittens are cool as well.



God hates queers and he loves kittens. AMERICAAAAAA!
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daveshan wrote:
Also, if he had tied up loose ends (Lil' E's memory and flashbacks, Zombie boy finding some kind of home, Slick coming to terms with himself, Satan's decision of what to do with Fuschia, etc) I'd be ok with the feminist storyline going on for longer than usual. But he has all these other interesting storylines, but wasting his time on one that's really boring to me and many others on this forum.

I don't want to potentially spoil where things are going yet for those that don't see the pattern and direction yet, and I'm already doing serious heavy duty discussion of the reasons behind this in another thread, but all of these are likely to conceptually tie into the feminism stuff too (though the Story Zombie has by a significant margin the weakest links so far out of these). The portrayal of Slick and Fuchsia since the start of the Sisterhood feminism stuff in particular are particularly specific to certain "core" concepts in feminism. Even Big D's vault that hides his happy memories is a very relevant metaphor for what patriarchy does to men that forces them to continue perpetuating the very thing that hurts themselves.

E: This strip was so awesome that I have written a 30000 word essay about it expressing my excitement, and it still wasn't enough words.
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