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2012-06-30 Meet Your New Master
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1017

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
You're not demanding but you're annoyed enough at the lack of progress or change of topics that you feel like you have to express a written opinion about it.


I have only expanded about that particular point after I was questioned about it. As I explained. this was mostly me saying "Opinion A meet opinion B"

Sam the Eagle wrote:
You've been here long enough to know this happens anyway. Tat is known for, from time to times go the "safe", politically incorrect, topic. Maybe to get a hard on from forumites flaming one another; we're pretty good at that anyway.


Again I am not so sure about the forum feedback having such a huge influence over the comic strip, and I don't know why you would be so sure about it.

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Even if you're right about this being "swatting a fly with a cannon", it's Tat' cannon to use until he feels out of ammo. If anything can be said about Sinfest' societal topics is that it's often parochial, too US centered; that's my peeve anyway. The feminist issue in other parts of the world raise a lot of other questions only a few of us know enough or care about with sufficient data to back one's views that it's best left unexpressed.


...I am not so sure of what you mean by this. It has never been my point of view that Tat does and says too much about equal rights. It is just the means that confounds me. I mean, seriously. You have also been here a while, if I were to time travel and tell you one year ago that the comic was about to become primarily focused on feminism wouldn't you think it sounds a bit weird?

But that is not even the point. The point is, like daveshan says but I am too lazy to keep using quotes, there are lots, lots and lots of more interesting things that Sinfest could be focusing in.

Sam the Eagle wrote:
I don't agree here. Those are hoping to get trollish type of reply in the vain hope of vindicating their own view, in a perverted form of way. They're not into sharing or asking for new viewpoints.

And really, meanness is an accepted form of communication in here.


Good to know about the last sentence. About the rest, however... I don't think so. It seems a bit too contrived and this particular forum doesn't seem like the right one to do it.



Special feature: Also answering Adyon! Sorry about not quoting you but Sam the Eagle's message was shorter.

Yeah you are technically right. Stuff is happening. However, did you notice while composing that post that one of that really interesting stuff has to do with the feminism plotline? Lil' E's Past, Storytime Zombie, BOMFed Slick... It just makes you read more about those things.

However I will thank you. You made me appreciate how much has been going on independently of all this ^^
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That people don't recognize those things as having to do with feminism is why Tatsuya has to do the more strictly feminist things first. If you do not understand those things, or at least don't have a vague awareness of them, the stories about the things you say are interesting to you now will be comparatively much more shallow to you for that lack of understanding. Fuchsia's current story progression is not merely about love and escaping evil, it's also about overcoming abuse and patriarchal influence in her life to become her own person rather than being chained down to what patriarchy wants her to be.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3301

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I prefer to think of it as "outing douchebags".


Since when have you been the voice of reason around here?. Turn back the way you were you sniveling rat faced git!.


Goat-faced TYVM
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Special feature: Also answering Adyon! Sorry about not quoting you but Sam the Eagle's message was shorter.

Yeah you are technically right. Stuff is happening. However, did you notice while composing that post that one of that really interesting stuff has to do with the feminism plotline? Lil' E's Past, Storytime Zombie, BOMFed Slick... It just makes you read more about those things.

However I will thank you. You made me appreciate how much has been going on independently of all this ^^

No worries. I wouldn't expect anyone to quote that post.

Technically I find a lot of the interesting stuff within Glossy's group as well, but I was just quoting mostly outside stuff. But while there are all these points to go back to, I think that's kind of the point. I think he wants to have things he can jump back and forth between, because he's not trying to focus completely on the feminism arc 100%. So, that he can jump to other story-lines is a big reason not to resolve them. But his plots have really stretched out in general for all his plots the length of the comic.

He's had several that go on for just as long, and they're not nearly as complex as the feminism arc. Tat can always find place to make random strips. If so his humor wouldn't have always been so good. The plot here just facilitates it even more. But I think the feminism arc isn't really an arc. If you take Glossy as just a character, she's had several little arcs in there too. And beyond that, I feel she's more of a figure like Jesus or Buddha now. She's one outside the characters, influencing them. She just has the nice plot that will conflict with Big D and should be very interesting.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1017

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
That people don't recognize those things as having to do with feminism is why Tatsuya has to do the more strictly feminist things first. If you do not understand those things, or at least don't have a vague awareness of them, the stories about the things you say are interesting to you now will be comparatively much more shallow to you for that lack of understanding. Fuchsia's current story progression is not merely about love and escaping evil, it's also about overcoming abuse and patriarchal influence in her life to become her own person rather than being chained down to what patriarchy wants her to be.


I dare to disagree here, perhaps at the risk of sounding like a douche to some, there was not a lot of need to bring up the patriarchy to set up Fuchsia's current story progression, which I would relate more to her overcoming the expectations related to her species and social status as stated before the current arc as opposed to her gender.

Also, and this is important, I really do not want to see the Devil as a stand-in for the patriarchy. On a personal level because I think it would lose some coolness, but if you need an ethical level to it, it would imply that all of the evil of the world revolves around gender roles, which, well, is not the case.



And Adyon... You know in other circumstances I would agree, but Glossy is affecting the direction of the comic in a way to significant to be put on the same level as Bood or Jesus.

Also those arcs are FAR more complex in my opinion. I could justify my points of view from a storytelling level but frankly I don't feel like doing it unless I really need to. They just don't have as much attention put into them.
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daveshan



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
daveshan wrote:
Also, if he had tied up loose ends (Lil' E's memory and flashbacks, Zombie boy finding some kind of home, Slick coming to terms with himself, Satan's decision of what to do with Fuschia, etc) I'd be ok with the feminist storyline going on for longer than usual. But he has all these other interesting storylines, but wasting his time on one that's really boring to me and many others on this forum.


I don't want to potentially spoil where things are going yet for those that don't see the pattern and direction yet, and I'm already doing serious heavy duty discussion of the reasons behind this in another thread, but all of these are likely to conceptually tie into the feminism stuff too (though the Story Zombie has by a significant margin the weakest links so far out of these). The portrayal of Slick and Fuchsia since the start of the Sisterhood feminism stuff in particular are particularly specific to certain "core" concepts in feminism. Even Big D's vault that hides his happy memories is a very relevant metaphor for what patriarchy does to men that forces them to continue perpetuating the very thing that hurts themselves.


That sounds really cool. Can you link me to that thread? I'd love to be part of the discussion.


Adyon wrote:

Technically I find a lot of the interesting stuff within Glossy's group as well, but I was just quoting mostly outside stuff. But while there are all these points to go back to, I think that's kind of the point. I think he wants to have things he can jump back and forth between, because he's not trying to focus completely on the feminism arc 100%. So, that he can jump to other story-lines is a big reason not to resolve them. But his plots have really stretched out in general for all his plots the length of the comic.

He's had several that go on for just as long, and they're not nearly as complex as the feminism arc. Tat can always find place to make random strips. If so his humor wouldn't have always been so good. The plot here just facilitates it even more. But I think the feminism arc isn't really an arc. If you take Glossy as just a character, she's had several little arcs in there too. And beyond that, I feel she's more of a figure like Jesus or Buddha now. She's one outside the characters, influencing them. She just has the nice plot that will conflict with Big D and should be very interesting.


I disagree with your interpretation of Glossy. I see her as a Mary Sue by Sinfest standards. Buddha and Jesus rarely interact with the main cast, if they do, they show examples of good behavior and don't try to beat a message down someone's throat. Thus, their ability to be unfazed an unbeaten by anything around them is allotted (especially for Budda, whose whole character is about letting things be).

Glossy has yet to be called out in a serious in-universe argument or rattled by anyone even God can't get under her skin.

I have no problem with her motorcycle/big wheel and the sisterhood organization that can send pills through a computer screen; that stuff's normal for Sinfest. But force fields in general, plus ones that can easily withstand Hell's power? That's Mary Sue.

Glossy is invincible by Sinfest standards and, unlike Jesus, Buddha, God, and the Eastern Dragon, she isn't a diety and doesn't keep herself outside of the interactions of the cast, save for a few jokes or small gestures where teaching is done by example.



On an outside note of other things to talk about in Sinfest, anyone else but me wondering how this got Blue to where she is today?: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4198
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daveshan wrote:
That sounds really cool. Can you link me to that thread? I'd love to be part of the discussion.

It's the "dudebro factory" thread if you want to take another shot at reading it all up. You made some posts there before already.
Quote:
Glossy has yet to be called out in a serious in-universe argument or rattled by anyone even God can't get under her skin.

Glossy is invincible by Sinfest standards and, unlike Jesus, Buddha, God, and the Eastern Dragon, she isn't a diety and doesn't keep herself outside of the interactions of the cast, save for a few jokes or small gestures where teaching is done by example.

Glossy and her goals are threatenable in a way that God and such are not. If something bad happens to Fuchsia, Pebbles, Monique and other women because of gender, that is essentially an assault on Glossy and co. That is their "vulnerability".
Quote:
I have no problem with her motorcycle/big wheel and the sisterhood organization that can send pills through a computer screen; that stuff's normal for Sinfest. But force fields in general, plus ones that can easily withstand Hell's power? That's Mary Sue.

Think of it as Glossy having specifically trained and equipped in a way to fight hell's power. Metaphorically, that's kind of what feminism is like in real life. Feminism deals with fixing a lot of unsavory things that people really don't like you messing with, so you have to be tough, become tough, or get broken by patriarchal abuse.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1958
Location: Somewhere else.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daveshan wrote:
...if I just leave and never let Tat know what I think, he's going to think that his whole audience loves this kind of story and won't change back. If I stay, I can convince him that this isn't a good story and he'll go back to writing the kind of strips that make me laugh and the stories that keep me enthralled.
This has to be a joke. You can't seriously have that high of an opinion about yourself.
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Necronner



Joined: 23 Jul 2010
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um... I'm not really for some of these points.

For instance Heterosexual Privilege. I've read the points, and I'm guessing (NOTE: GUESSING, I haven't studied it but this is my gist of it) it is bad that as someone who is heterosexual, I am not subjected to the prejudices of someone who is non heterosexual.

Is that really a privilege? Is there a Virigin Privilege? I feel that I will not inherit any sexual transmitted diseases barring those passed genetically to me by my parents and accidental exposure to infected substances?

What of Healthy Privilege? Someone who is healthy does not feel like I have to worry about dying from a heart attack at age 60? Doesn't have to pay extra money for airline tickets or be forced to buy 2 seats when 1 seat can be made due.

Basically It's like what Spoony said about Avatar (the alien one not Shamalamadingdong's version). "This message has been done to DEATH. Yes we hurt people, yes the [white man](replace with whatever widely known person or identy of racism/sexism/bastardy actions that have done to someone else) are bastards. We did horrible things. We get it. Message received."

And to add myself, we can't change what happened in the past and is currently happening NOW, but I can try to make it so it doesn't happen in the future, and just complaining about it to each other and to the people that will listen won't change the people that are not listening.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6038
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is not "bad" that you're not subjected to the prejudices that homosexuals face. nobody should have to face those prejudices. being aware of your privilege as a heterosexual simply means being aware that your life is, in that regard, easier.

"health," the way you used it, doesn't really fall under the category of "privilege," because that's largely in your control, whereas being of a particular race or sexuality is not.

since so many people are constantly insisting that there is no such privilege and it's just so hard to be a straight white Christian male, apparently the message has not been received. at least not by those who need to hear it.
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necronner wrote:
Um... I'm not really for some of these points.

For instance Heterosexual Privilege. I've read the points, and I'm guessing (NOTE: GUESSING, I haven't studied it but this is my gist of it) it is bad that as someone who is heterosexual, I am not subjected to the prejudices of someone who is non heterosexual.

Is that really a privilege? Is there a Virigin Privilege? I feel that I will not inherit any sexual transmitted diseases barring those passed genetically to me by my parents and accidental exposure to infected substances?

Yes.

No, there is no system power behind virginity that makes non-virgins relatively oppressed by virgins. There are some problems surrounding virginity regarding sexism, but there isn't really any privilege behind virginity itself really.

Your last question here does not really make sense in the context of what privilege is supposed to be about, which is systemic oppression.
Quote:
What of Healthy Privilege? Someone who is healthy does not feel like I have to worry about dying from a heart attack at age 60? Doesn't have to pay extra money for airline tickets or be forced to buy 2 seats when 1 seat can be made due.

Some of this can fall under ableism and classism. It's complicated so we'd probably have to talk about what healthy things there are you're trying to bring up specifically.
Quote:
Basically It's like what Spoony said about Avatar (the alien one not Shamalamadingdong's version). "This message has been done to DEATH. Yes we hurt people, yes the [white man](replace with whatever widely known person or identy of racism/sexism/bastardy actions that have done to someone else) are bastards. We did horrible things. We get it. Message received."

There are many things going on today and the message on those is not really received.
Quote:
And to add myself, we can't change what happened in the past and is currently happening NOW, but I can try to make it so it doesn't happen in the future, and just complaining about it to each other and to the people that will listen won't change the people that are not listening.

You have to change the now to change the future.
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Kylra



Joined: 11 Jan 2012
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should probably clarify something I just realized about your post.

You have this backward:
Quote:
it is bad that as someone who is heterosexual, I am not subjected to the prejudices of someone who is non heterosexual.

It is bad that non-heterosexual people are subject to prejudices you are not. That you do not suffer that kind of prejudice is not bad. It is bad that anyone does suffer that kind of prejudice.

The idea is to destroy that prejudice so no one faces it, not make sure everyone has to deal with it as you imply there.
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daveshan



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
daveshan wrote:
...if I just leave and never let Tat know what I think, he's going to think that his whole audience loves this kind of story and won't change back. If I stay, I can convince him that this isn't a good story and he'll go back to writing the kind of strips that make me laugh and the stories that keep me enthralled.


This has to be a joke. You can't seriously have that high of an opinion about yourself.


It was supposed to be read as the third-person 'I', if that makes any sense. Basically, if everyone who doesn't like this storyline leaves the forum, as several people have suggested, Tat won't get any negative feedback and will think that all of his readers like this and storylines like it.


Kylra wrote:
daveshan wrote:
That sounds really cool. Can you link me to that thread? I'd love to be part of the discussion.

It's the "dudebro factory" thread if you want to take another shot at reading it all up. You made some posts there before already.


Thanks. Yeah, I remember. I stopped posting in there when it looked like everyone was done talking about the comic and the characters and wanted to talk about feminism. Glad to see it's back on track, though I'll probably just read the last two or three pages to catch up. That thread's already up to 30+ pages.



Kylra wrote:
Quote:
Glossy has yet to be called out in a serious in-universe argument or rattled by anyone even God can't get under her skin.

Glossy is invincible by Sinfest standards and, unlike Jesus, Buddha, God, and the Eastern Dragon, she isn't a diety and doesn't keep herself outside of the interactions of the cast, save for a few jokes or small gestures where teaching is done by example.


Glossy and her goals are threatenable in a way that God and such are not. If something bad happens to Fuchsia, Pebbles, Monique and other women because of gender, that is essentially an assault on Glossy and co. That is their "vulnerability".


Sure, the Sisterhood's goals aren't invulnerable, much like Budda's 'goal' of spreading enlightenment and Jesus's goal to create peace and harmony aren't invulnerable. But she seems to be on par with them in terms of never being proven wrong or getting beaten up emotionally. Think about it, are there any other mortals God can't get under the skin of? I vaguely recall God taking a shot or two at Crimey and getting him flustered.



Kylra wrote:
Quote:
I have no problem with her motorcycle/big wheel and the sisterhood organization that can send pills through a computer screen; that stuff's normal for Sinfest. But force fields in general, plus ones that can easily withstand Hell's power? That's Mary Sue.


Think of it as Glossy having specifically trained and equipped in a way to fight hell's power. Metaphorically, that's kind of what feminism is like in real life. Feminism deals with fixing a lot of unsavory things that people really don't like you messing with, so you have to be tough, become tough, or get broken by patriarchal abuse.


I was going to write something to clarify my point, but decided against it. I decided to let the matter with the fireball go because:

*It was Blue, not Satan himself.
*Blue's using, what seems to be, a basic fireball attack; nothing too advanced.
*Even if that was Blue's best move, she wouldn't think she needed to use full power against a mortal.
*Finally, Glossy did flinch, so I guess she was scared of it after all.

Ok, Glossy isn't as perfectly Mary Sue as Buddha, Jesus, and E. Dragon, but she's pretty close unless she turns out to be Hera or someone like that in the form of a child so she could directly influence the human world without risking the wrath of the other gods. But if she isn't a deity and Satan himself so much as flicks a fireball out of his teeth at her or any other Big Wheel-rider, those shields should not be worth the breath used to call them up.


EDIT: Just realized, in the last panel of today's strip, Slick isn't saying "Help, I don't want", he's saying, "Help, I don't what."
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2661
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw the shield bubble as one of those random things that just pop up in Sinfest. Remember when Nique, Slick and Squig suddenly also had BOMF powers (when Pebbles appeared)?
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Tinrac



Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 38
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: (^^) Reply with quote

Just a lil quickie
Was once again lurking and reading the forums without any intention AT ALL of joining in. I love seeing all the different arguments and opinions without having to have a voice and try and defend my own opinions because that naturally creates a sort of ignorance wall. People always want their opinions to be right and seeing flaws is very very hard for most people, more so in a heated discussion.

ANYWAY, as i said, I love seeing all the sides and it hit me...This is probably a very big reason why Tatsuya-san is on this particular...theme. The opinions and views really are insightful, and I think he thinks that too.

I could be wrong though. heh.

bye for now.(>w<)/
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