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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2723
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Warsaw, R. I Never Called it Rape. New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1994. wrote: | | One in Four college women report surviving rape (15 percent) or attempted rape (12 percent) since their fourteenth birthday. (1) |
| Ashland wrote: | | We are not really a society of serial rapists |
This is why you don't get taken seriously. You make these claims based on your own faith in the inherent goodness of our society (a privilege you get to have since you have a penis), and because the actual reality of the situation is pretty fucking horrific and it's easier to just go "naw that's not how it is" and argue from your gut. Do me a solid and cite some fucking sources that support your argument, because the statistics are pretty ugly.
| Koss, M. P., L. Hiese, and N. F. Russo. "The Global Health Burden of Rape." Psychology of Women Quarterly 18 (1994): 509-37. wrote: | | 35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn't be caught or punished. (9) |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:25 am Post subject: |
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see, and people like Giendi wonder why we give Ashland so much shit. well, that and the fact that he is a gigantic douchenozzle.
the root of that whole mess of a post is yet another failure to understand what feminism is all about. because at no point have you shown that it seeks to
| Quote: | | Weaken everyone else so that they are closer to your level.* |
and you conveniently ignore the many ways feminists encourage women to
| Quote: | | Better yourself by education, training, temperance, and other forward thinking behaviors. |
but either way, Ashland, and perhaps more spectacularly, this post is a giant steaming example of your laughable hypocrisy. because, really, you can't proceed to
| Quote: | | Better yourself by education, training, temperance, and other forward thinking behaviors. |
unless you tear down the obstacles to doing so. the things like social attitudes that consider women to be inferior to men at certain jobs and fields, the stereotypes that keep people from taking women seriously, the attitudes that prevent girls and boys from receiving a truly equal education and truly equal opportunities... that's why feminists point out all these aspects of society that keep women from doing that. the women who do succeed have done so in spite of those headwinds. yet the process of bettering yourself by education etc can't begin unless you determine what the obstacles are, where they are, and who or what put them there. and that is the process that you denigrate as
| Quote: | | Weaken everyone else so that they are closer to your level. |
and insist should not be done. but if you don't do that, you'll never be able to remove the obstacles that stand between you and
| Quote: | | Better yourself by education, training, temperance, and other forward thinking behaviors. |
and so, that does not happen.
so, Ashland, in your own little way, you are ensuring that this
| Quote: | | Better yourself by education, training, temperance, and other forward thinking behaviors. |
never happens, by reinforcing and perpetuating the common misogynist refrain that we should not look at how all those obstacles got there. you're smart enough to know this and it's been pointed out to you God knows how many times over the past couple months.
so when you keep bleating about how you actually do support this stuff, you just don't support it when feminists talk about it? yeah, that makes you a straight up 100% fuckin' hypocrite.
*amusingly, this is exactly what you were trying to do when you were still flogging the "feminism is a religion" horse. since you didn't mention that this time, i'll assume you gave up on it. which is good, if that's the case, because it's stupid.
and, incidentally...what is "temperance" supposed to mean here? |
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Ashland
Joined: 15 May 2012
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ten Thousand Things wrote: | I think the problem with that kind of reasoning is that it implies that women need to prove that they are equal (e.g. requiring examples of female role models that are good at math, so people realize that women are just as good at math as men) whereas it should already be self-evident. Now, I am not saying that you necessarily believe this (or you could, i don't know) but that's the implication of your argument that I'm seeing.
Also, "fighting the patriarchy" isn't so much about having a boogie man for everyone to unite against, and it isn't about the vilification of men. It's something to be aware of so that we as a society can get rid of unfair or stereotypical notions about women(and men). It's not about women having to exceed such standards to prove to be worthy of equality. |
The problem is, while it should be self-evident, it isn't. The key, then, isn't to rile up and insist people make way for women. Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never will. That means you don't ask for power. You do not tell people they have been unfair and you would like to be recognized as having power now. You have to display you have it.
For women to gain power, the most efficient path is to show women as being powerful. We pity victims at first, but when people stay victims we begin to wonder why. Consistently show women as being victimized, and we will consistently think of them as weak and unable to stand up for themselves, as victims. In the end, the portrayal of women as victims is only shooting that gender in the feet.
In simpler terms, powerful leaders form powerful groups. Powerful women will serve example. Nobody wants to be lead by a victim, and nobody respects a victim - we pity victims. Pity does not beget strength.
_________________
Everyone thinks they are individuals who follow their own rules. However, man is a being of patterns. He has habits because without them he would cease to be. Though perhaps possessed of creativity, he will always be merely human. |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2723
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| What a very patriarchal stance. |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2723
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ashland wrote: | | Ten Thousand Things wrote: | I think the problem with that kind of reasoning is that it implies that women need to prove that they are equal (e.g. requiring examples of female role models that are good at math, so people realize that women are just as good at math as men) whereas it should already be self-evident. Now, I am not saying that you necessarily believe this (or you could, i don't know) but that's the implication of your argument that I'm seeing.
Also, "fighting the patriarchy" isn't so much about having a boogie man for everyone to unite against, and it isn't about the vilification of men. It's something to be aware of so that we as a society can get rid of unfair or stereotypical notions about women(and men). It's not about women having to exceed such standards to prove to be worthy of equality. |
If you aren't strong enough to knock our boots off your neck, you don't deserve our boots off your neck! |
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Ten Thousand Things
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 89
Location: Glorious City of Luna Llena (no refunds)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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EDIT: I couldn't resist.
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"Wealth beyond measure, outlander." |
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Ashland
Joined: 15 May 2012
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Ashland wrote: | | Ten Thousand Things wrote: | I think the problem with that kind of reasoning is that it implies that women need to prove that they are equal (e.g. requiring examples of female role models that are good at math, so people realize that women are just as good at math as men) whereas it should already be self-evident. Now, I am not saying that you necessarily believe this (or you could, i don't know) but that's the implication of your argument that I'm seeing.
Also, "fighting the patriarchy" isn't so much about having a boogie man for everyone to unite against, and it isn't about the vilification of men. It's something to be aware of so that we as a society can get rid of unfair or stereotypical notions about women(and men). It's not about women having to exceed such standards to prove to be worthy of equality. |
If you aren't strong enough to knock our boots off your neck, you don't deserve our boots off your neck! |
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Well, McDermott. I think we need to ask a serious question here. Are women strong to remove a boot from their necks or do you find the gender lacking?
I presume many women already have the power and exercize it freely.
_________________
Everyone thinks they are individuals who follow their own rules. However, man is a being of patterns. He has habits because without them he would cease to be. Though perhaps possessed of creativity, he will always be merely human. |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:48 am Post subject: |
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the degree to which you missed the point is laughable
way to go, Dunning-Kruger. way to go. |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2723
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ashland wrote: | | Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Ashland wrote: | | Ten Thousand Things wrote: | I think the problem with that kind of reasoning is that it implies that women need to prove that they are equal (e.g. requiring examples of female role models that are good at math, so people realize that women are just as good at math as men) whereas it should already be self-evident. Now, I am not saying that you necessarily believe this (or you could, i don't know) but that's the implication of your argument that I'm seeing.
Also, "fighting the patriarchy" isn't so much about having a boogie man for everyone to unite against, and it isn't about the vilification of men. It's something to be aware of so that we as a society can get rid of unfair or stereotypical notions about women(and men). It's not about women having to exceed such standards to prove to be worthy of equality. |
If you aren't strong enough to knock our boots off your neck, you don't deserve our boots off your neck! |
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Well, McDermott. I think we need to ask a serious question here. Are women strong to remove a boot from their necks or do you find the gender lacking?
I presume many women already have the power and exercize it freely. |
I think women are actually slowly lifting the boot off their neck. I think they have been since like 1917 or whenever suffrage happened. I also believe major shifts in culture and society occur in generational spurts, so that by the time our great grandchildren are around, people like you will be the racist old grandparents of today. Kind of a family embarassment that people roll their eyes at when they aren't looking but offer a semblance of respect to as a family elder.
Kids today are more tolerant of gay marriage, interracial marriage, alternative sexualities and the like than they have been at any time in the past and the rising tide of trying to treat people equally raises all boats.
I don't believe however that just because I'm unlikely to see some massive shift in my lifetime that the fight isn't worth fighting. Even if all I do is call people like you out on your bullshit,try to treat people with a little sensitivity and fairness..and be aware of how lucky I am to be a white dude in america, and acknowledge that other people aren't so lucky....well if someone younger than me sees that and takes it to heart, that's a win in my eyes. Its another drop in that rising tide. |
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Ten Thousand Things
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 89
Location: Glorious City of Luna Llena (no refunds)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Ashland wrote: | | Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Ashland wrote: | | Ten Thousand Things wrote: | I think the problem with that kind of reasoning is that it implies that women need to prove that they are equal (e.g. requiring examples of female role models that are good at math, so people realize that women are just as good at math as men) whereas it should already be self-evident. Now, I am not saying that you necessarily believe this (or you could, i don't know) but that's the implication of your argument that I'm seeing.
Also, "fighting the patriarchy" isn't so much about having a boogie man for everyone to unite against, and it isn't about the vilification of men. It's something to be aware of so that we as a society can get rid of unfair or stereotypical notions about women(and men). It's not about women having to exceed such standards to prove to be worthy of equality. |
If you aren't strong enough to knock our boots off your neck, you don't deserve our boots off your neck! |
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Well, McDermott. I think we need to ask a serious question here. Are women strong to remove a boot from their necks or do you find the gender lacking?
I presume many women already have the power and exercize it freely. |
What if it's like... a really really big boot? With spikes.
EDIT: Oh god... I now have an image of a mustache-twirling villain stomping down on women with an armored boot, laughing maniacally.
_________________
"Wealth beyond measure, outlander." |
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ktern
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 894
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: |
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i suspect one reason many men are resistant to change in this regard isn't because they want to keep being unfair to women (there are those who do, of course, but there are always assholes). it's that people who see the idiocy in their ingrained ideas are too quick to make a laughingstock out of them
the beatdown that ashland is getting here will probably make him think that feminists are elitist assholes, as opposed to realizing that you're correct. and it's kind of a shame, because feminism isn't a cause that can succeed unless enough men also embrace it
maybe you just think ashland is a lost cause so you're going the full-on trolling route. from page 2 though my impression of him is that he wants to treat women right but has absolutely no clue how
perhaps i'm too optimistic here. i just know that when i used to tutor in math, i'd have been way less successful if i'd constantly raged at students for their massive ignorance of simple concepts. some people just weren't so lucky to get it immediately
btw, i only say this because while i love all the forum trolling, i do think that this is a worthwhile cause that deserves better |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2723
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| ktern wrote: | i suspect one reason many men are resistant to change in this regard isn't because they want to keep being unfair to women (there are those who do, of course, but there are always assholes). it's that people who see the idiocy in their ingrained ideas are too quick to make a laughingstock out of them
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Go to his profile...start from his first post a few months back, then come back and chime in. |
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Ten Thousand Things
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 89
Location: Glorious City of Luna Llena (no refunds)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Ashland's last post makes me think he's trolling as well. Atleast at some level.
_________________
"Wealth beyond measure, outlander." |
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ktern
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 894
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Go to his profile...start from his first post a few months back, then come back and chime in. |
from this i kind of expected to see that you guys were initially patient with him, but it looks more like the bashing started right away
many people, especially more childish or macho types, will get defensive about their ideas if insulted, even if they are really bad ideas. it's no surprise that no progress has been made even months later, or perhaps things have gotten even worse
this is, of course, a well-documented phenomenon, for instance: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022103167900017 |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| the bashing started right away because it was clear right from the beginning that he wanted an audience to tell him how wonderful he was. and if that's what you're fishing for, well, you're gonna have a bad time. |
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