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Why Socialism? Him's soap box.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4171
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
WTF does any of that have to do with american politics?

Edit: not to imply american politics are all that matter, but they're widely different from european politics and were what were under discussion earlier.

I believe the question was, why do socialists seek office and what would we do if elected. Our basic answer is the same regardless if it's england, australia, brazil, ireland, hong kong or sweden in question. Or indeed the US.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the first countries you list are countries used to coalition building in government.

This is not the case in the U.S.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we're not even parliamentary
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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely beside the point.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5897
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the point being, you guys don't really seem to do much with office once you take it. your own descriptions of socialism's elected officials make them sound like dilettantes who are more interested in building a political party and pretending to be Che Guevara than they are in having concrete effect on policy.

i vote for people who will go have concrete effect on policy because i want to see concrete effect on policy in particular directions, and i don't care if those effects are realized by socialists or liberals or conservatives or libertarians or anarchists or orcs or space marines or robot genghis khan from the future or giant quivering amoebas that live in caves and eat bat turds or who the fuck ever. i don't vote for the conservatives and libertarians and anarchists because i strongly doubt they would move policy in the direction i want. i have to wonder about the socialists.

*i don't vote for robot genghis khan from the future because he went back to the future before i could and also he was speaking mongolian the whole time and i don't think i understood him but i think he was saying something about the inevitability of huge public investment in mass transit as gas prices reach impossible levels.

and i don't vote for the amoebas because they never seem to run in my district.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at all beside the point.

That local community organizing crap? Any jackass with a bug up his butt and a shred of charisma can manage that.

Being a politician in america requires compromise and the ability to work within the system and the people in it. Otherwise you're just sisyphus.
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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I linked a video where Kshama Sawant talks about compromises. Check it out why don't you.
Quote:

the point being, you guys don't really seem to do much with office once you take it. your own descriptions of socialism's elected officials make them sound like dilettantes who are more interested in building a political party and pretending to be Che Guevara than they are in having concrete effect on policy.

Wrong. There is a reason they keep getting re-elected. It's called having principles something that, I think you'd probably agree, isn't exactly common among elected officials. What you call "playing Che Guevara" shows you have no concept of what community work mean. Let me take concrete examples, again, in Haninge we have, with two councillors and the backing of the teachers, students and parents managed to stop the closedown of local high schools. Several times. It's amazing how budget priories can change with even a small movement in the streets. That's how we can achieve much more than our two votes on the council would imply. This is the point. Also through being active in such campaigns we gain further support, show ourselves to be consistent and ready to stick our neck out. And we have to do that, because that is the only way we can move forward anyway, on the basis of a solid support in the community. I keep coming back to the high schools, but that's simply because we've managed to beat a majority in the council several times, by being a majority in the streets. We've also been active in other campaigns too of course. In short we have a very concrete effect on policy. Sadly it's more often defensive damage-control, i e stopping counter-reforms but every school closedown or attempt to shut down youth centers, or budget cuts stopped takes us a step further and also consolidates our support showing that we are not just talkers, that we earn the support given to us. In fact in Yarra we've gotten through several progressive reforms, despite having only one seat on the council, because when faced with public scrutiny and outrage the other councillors, most of which claim to be left of center, can't afford to vote no.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Politics does not work the same way in america that it does in europe.


Politics does not work the same way in america that it does in europe.

Politics does not work the same way in america that it does in europe.

Yknow why?

Because you're a fucking socialist who wants to take from good hard working americans and give to a bunch of lazy shiftless drug users who leech off society.

Oops now like half of america actively hates you and wants to work against you.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

links, please. from neutral parties, that is, and not from socialist propaganda sites. i wonder if these successes you claim are really due to socialists and not just things that socialists happened to be involved in that they later took credit for.
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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Politics does not work the same way in america that it does in europe.


Politics does not work the same way in america that it does in europe.

Politics does not work the same way in america that it does in europe.

Yknow why?

Because you're a fucking socialist who wants to take from good hard working americans and give to a bunch of lazy shiftless drug users who leech off society.

Oops now like half of america actively hates you and wants to work against you.

If we can manage having a clandestine organization in a police state like China I think we can manage some red-baiting in the US of A. And indeed America is different, that's why we might work with people like Greens, who's counterparts in europe sold out ages ago. But the basic principle, that we can only truly go forward by building from the grassroots up is as true in the U.S as anywhere. How the hell do you think the labour movement, or indeed any popular movement, is built to begin with?
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
links, please. from neutral parties, that is, and not from socialist propaganda sites. i wonder if these successes you claim are really due to socialists and not just things that socialists happened to be involved in that they later took credit for.

You do realize that's pretty insulting of you imply?
Here's an interview with Stephen Jolly from the Electrical Trades Union News from 2005.

now I've only got another seven years of active work in the community to go through. Give me a second.

Here's an interview from 2010.
So uh two examples for now? I'm about to sleep anyway so that will have to do right now.

of course I should talk about the anti-water charges campaign(s) in ireland and such too but. Yeah need a few hours sleep.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1082
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just throwing it out there that Canada's political system is quite close to European political systems, so technically American politics can work the same way as European politics, unless you are referring to just the US with the term "America" (and not referring to the North American continent).

Being pedantic aside, if you publicize this:

Quote:
Sadly it's more often defensive damage-control, i e stopping counter-reforms but every school closedown or attempt to shut down youth centers, or budget cuts stopped takes us a step further and also consolidates our support showing that we are not just talkers, that we earn the support given to us.


Prepare to have both established parties bring up the political brick wall the trillions of dollars in debt that the US is in; and proceed to take turns smashing you face first into it.

Also:
Quote:
http://members.optushome.com.au/spainter/jolly.html


Not from a neutral party at all, and honestly, how does this benefit the community? As far as I can see, it benefits only the socialist party and the unions that are in a mutual agreement with them.

Quote:
industrial relations regime of terror Howard is introducing

Bahahahahahaha "Regime of terror". "Regime of terror" is Pinochet. The NSDAP. Auschwitz. The Falangists. The Khmer Rouge. The FARC, the IRA, the Rwandan genocide.
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Him



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I should've realized you think the unions are biased. How about other community orhs we've worked with? I suppose they're all biased too? Oh and do tell me more about edtablishment politicians. It's not like we have them...everywhere. Again the point is building from below, forcimg the politicians to back. We've done that without seats but we believe they should be challenged electorally as well.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Sorry I should've realized you think the unions are biased. How about other community orhs we've worked with? I suppose they're all biased too? Oh and do tell me more about edtablishment politicians. It's not like we have them...everywhere. Again the point is building from below, forcimg the politicians to back. We've done that without seats but we believe they should be challenged electorally as well.


Feel free to cheer and rally your cause once you can actually successfully challenge electorally in the U.S.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry I should've realized you think the unions are biased. How about other community orhs we've worked with? I suppose they're all biased too? Oh and do tell me more about edtablishment politicians. It's not like we have them...everywhere. Again the point is building from below, forcimg the politicians to back. We've done that without seats but we believe they should be challenged electorally as well.



Ozleft:
An independent forum of strategy, tactics and history in the Australian left, green and labour movements.

Erm... I'm going to go ahead and say the site is biased when it's name is "OzLeft" and it's byline is "And independent forum of strategy, tactics and history in the Australian left, green and labour movements". Is it really that hard to find a newspaper article on this community involvement that isn't on a socialist/leftist/marxist site?
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