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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh, I don't know why I can't seem to not respond. I guess maybe its because -deep down- I think there might still be something savable in you, Kylra.

Kylra wrote:

You didn't make any statement at all.

In my very last post I did not really make any truth claims, correct. But in the two posts before that I did.

Kylra wrote:

I'll take this fallacy callout seriously once you actually address all the types of harmful stuff I have been posting.
Alright. I will answer what you said:
I agree that stories that have women with bullet bras marry fat geeks are sexist and stupid. I agree that women mutilating their bodies for cultural "norms" is abhorrent. I agree that a culture in which the victim of rape sometimes shares the blame is unacceptable. I can agree with almost all of what you said because it in no way conflicts with what I said.

You are trying to make it seem like we are on the opposite ends of some spectrum and are trying to run far left in the hopes I will jump to the right, but, no, I'm just going to sit her in the middle where I started. You see, I was talking about something else. If you wish to address my real statements I recommend you go back, read those two posts again, reflect on my words, and answer them instead of pulling out your bag of canned answers.

Really, the only thing that I found truly objectionable in the brutal beating you gave your strawman was this:
Kylra wrote:
She's posed with a sports bra, pigtails and a lollipop. That's a pretty good start on sex objectification right there and I really doubt a game with "Lollipop" in the name is going to surprise me much. I wouldn't expect most game reviewers to talk much about anything sexist in games.

But I don't -really- object to the statements themselves, not having played the game I can't -really- say if they are right or wrong. What I disagree with is the attitude and mindset this paragraph represents, since IT is what I am talking about. In this paragraph you are judging something solely by appearances. You stop at the box cover and make your judgment and move on, without reflecting, without researching, without doing anything but the most causal glance at part before condemning the whole.
That you might be right (and you very well might be) is besides the point.

You are -simply put- judging a book by its cover, and THAT is the very problem I am talking about.
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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also like to add (since we all seem to making vague references to our own thoughts on the matter) that -apparently- the fact that -in Lollipop Chainsaw- Juliet chainsaws the reanimated corpses of former classmates isn't really an issue for anyone here. The fact she does this while in a skimpy cheerleaders outfit is.

To try and better articulate what I mean:
It seems to me that gratuitous and over-the-top animated violence isn't something people seem to be all that worried about anymore. In that, people assume rational humans can sperate real from fake, escapism from existence, when it comes to such sadism. That some kids might take it into their heads to act out such atrocities is now something people increasingly contribute the children themselves being unbalanced.

However, it seems, at least around here, people seem to think the same is not true for physical appearances. It seems to me that gratuitous and over-the-top animated SEXUALISM is not something the denizens here feel humans should be able to separate out from reality. The only purposed solution to that problem is -not to better teach people the difference between a game and real life- but to mock, ridicule, and ultimately attempt to reduce such instances of sexualism.

(I would also like to add that this point of mine stands separate to the "cover judging" posts I made before. I think these current statements might be more controversial around here, anyway.)

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Kylra



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
agree that stories that have women with bullet bras marry fat geeks are sexist and stupid.

To spell it out some: "Strong Female Characters" is a trope about empowerment while still being beholden to straight male audience interests, making it a very false depiction of empowerment.
Quote:
I agree that women mutilating their bodies for cultural "norms" is abhorrent. I agree that a culture in which the victim of rape sometimes shares the blame is unacceptable. I can agree with almost all of what you said because it in no way conflicts with what I said.

Awesome.
Quote:
Kylra wrote:
She's posed with a sports bra, pigtails and a lollipop. That's a pretty good start on sex objectification right there and I really doubt a game with "Lollipop" in the name is going to surprise me much. I wouldn't expect most game reviewers to talk much about anything sexist in games.

But I don't -really- object to the statements themselves, not having played the game I can't -really- say if they are right or wrong. What I disagree with is the attitude and mindset this paragraph represents, since IT is what I am talking about. In this paragraph you are judging something solely by appearances. You stop at the box cover and make your judgment and move on, without reflecting, without researching, without doing anything but the most causal glance at part before condemning the whole.

I have limited time and this kind of thing is very very common. The only game arguably breaking this trope with subtext I have seen so far is Bayonetta, and Bayonetta has an atypical beauty standard especially compared to that character which is pretty much straight out of teen porn.
Quote:
You are -simply put- judging a book by its cover, and THAT is the very problem I am talking about.

Make a defense of the game not being sexist then.
Quote:
I would also like to add (since we all seem to making vague references to our own thoughts on the matter)

Why are you typing so many words if they aren't your thoughts on the matter?
Quote:
that -apparently- the fact that in the game Juliet chainsaws the reanimated corpses of former classmates isn't an issue for anyone here. The fact she does this while in a skimpy cheerleaders outfit is.

To try to better articulate what I mean. It seems to me that gratuitous and over-the-top animated violence isn't something people seem to be all that worried about anymore. In that, people assume rational humans can sperate real from fake, escapism from existence when it comes to such sadism. That some kids might take it into their heads to act out such atrocities is now something people increasingly contribute the children themselves being unbalanced.

However, it seems, at least around here, people seem to think the same is not true for physical appearances. It seems to me that gratuitous and over-the-top animated SEXUALISM is something people here seem to think is not something people should be able to separate out from reality. That the only solution to that problem is not to educate people better and to teach them the difference between a game and real life, but to mock and ridicule and reduce such instances of sexualism.

Physical harm is something everyone experiences from time to time, so there's an intimate understanding of how that hurts people. Not so for unrealistic beauty standards which only give pleasure reinforcement while being ignorant of the harm it does because one is not subject to the same beauty standards they want to enforce unless they are gay. How do you purport to want to "educate" about those problems if that is the discussion you are attempting to get people to stop?

There are issues with depicting people as brainless things to slaughter or depicting certain groups of people as "evil by nature" such as "middle eastern people are all terrorists".
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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
To spell it out some: "Strong Female Characters" is a trope about empowerment while still being beholden to male audience interests, making it a very false empowerment.
I would say this is not true for all "Strong Female Characters," only some.

Quote:

I have limited time and this kind of thing is very very common. The only game arguably breaking this trope with subtext I have seen so far is Bayonetta, and Bayonetta has an atypical beauty standard especially compared to that character which is pretty much straight out of teen porn.
So, instead of spending your limited time LEARNING you feel it would be better served typing your uninformed opinons?

Well, I disagree.
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Make a defense of the game not being sexist then.
I did.

Quote:
Physical harm is something everyone experiences from time to time, so there's an intimate understanding of how that hurts people. Not so for unrealistic beauty standards which only give pleasure reinforcement while being ignorant of the harm it does because one is not subject to the same beauty standards they want to enforce unless they are gay. How do you purport to want to "educate" about those problems if that is the discussion you are attempting to get people to stop?
So, you are saying everyone experiences PHYSICAL harm, but EMOTIONAL harm is a sensation alien to most people? Thus, they are less likely to be empathic about it?

Well, I heartily disagree.

If you are not saying that, then what are you saying? What problem do you have with unrealistic beauty standards other then them translating into harm, physical or emotional? Are you also worried about unrealistic pain threshold standards? Where people in video games get shot and don't seem to mind all that much? Do you feel people should be able to separate one and not the other? Why is sex so much more intractable than violence?


I would, also, just like to reiterate I am still opposed to women harming themselves for cultural "norms." But, again, that does not -in my mine- detract from any of my points.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes its sexist mong...in the same way every video game where the "ass kicking" protagonist happens to be drawn like a comic book porn star.
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Lich Mong



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My impulse control seems to be especially low today.
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Yes its sexist mong...in the same way every video game where the "ass kicking" protagonist happens to be drawn like a comic book porn star.

Right, I said that in my first post on the subject:
Lich Mong wrote:
Kylra will tell us that sexism is everywhere, and I would not argue that this game is an exception. No real woman could hope to look like Juliet. But, people like looking at beautiful people, and as CG and cosmetics improve, characters/models -men and women- are only getting more... otherworldly in their appearance. Certainly, most likely do to the inaccurate stereotype that men are more visual sexally, the female body image is -genrally- less realistic than the male's, especially in a game that is trying to cater to mostly men. I would agree that this is in-it-of-itself unfair and sexist.

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Kylra



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
I would say this is not true for all "Strong Female Characters," only some.

There's a difference between the sexist trope, capital letter Strong Female Characters, and female characters that are strong characters. It's like the difference between Nice Guys and guys who are nice.
Quote:
So, instead of spending your limited time LEARNING you feel it would be better served typing your uninformed opinons?

I know a lot about both video games and sexism, sorry to burst your bubble. If she didn't look like a typical teen porn star (and a cheerleading outfit? one more checkbox checked) I might have given it the benefit of the doubt and spent a bit of time checking it over.
Quote:
I did.

Make one that doesn't circle back to things you have said already that I have already responded to then. You're indirectly doing in other segments so it should be pretty easy to just continue those.
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So, you are saying everyone experiences PHYSICAL harm, but EMOTIONAL harm is a sensation alien to most people? Thus, they are less likely to be empathic about it?

Men don't experience having female beauty standards being forced onto themselves.
Quote:
Why is sex so much more intractable than violence?

See above for one reason.
Quote:
I would, also, just like to reiterate I am still opposed to women harming themselves for cultural "norms." But, again, that does not -in my mine- detract from any of my points.

I can see that.
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Lich Mong



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
There's a difference between the sexist trope proper noun Strong Female Characters, and female characters that are strong characters.
I'm glad you agree.

Kylra wrote:
I know a lot about both video games and sexism, sorry to burst your bubble. If she didn't look like a typical teen porn star (and a cheerleading outfit? one more checkbox checked) I might have given it the benefit of the doubt and spent a bit of time checking it over.
I said in my first post on the matter that her appearance was the product of sexism. That's not -and never was- the point.

You keep refuting statements I'm not making. It's not useful.

Quote:
Men don't experience having female beauty standards being forced onto themselves.
So, is the solution to teach them that such judgmental thoughts have real, harmful, and lasting consequences? Or is the best solution to completely eliminate gratuitous and over-the-top animated whatever?
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Kylra



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
I'm glad you agree.

Maybe you don't think "beholden to male audience interests and thus is a fake form of empowerment" is a problem? Otherwise I'm not sure how you think that doesn't apply here.
Quote:
I said in my first post her appearance was the product of sexism. That's not -and never was- the point.

Then you're going to need a better example.
Quote:
So, is the solution to teach them that such judgmental thoughts have real, harmful, and lasting consequences? Or is the best solution to completely eliminate gratuitous and over-the-top animated whatever?

"What is attractive" is the root issue here, not "how do you judge people you find to be attractive or not". Criticizing standards of beauty, pointing out the harm they cause, and working to try to get more realistic and diverse examples into media for what is attractive is how that harm will be negated. I'm sure "teen porn woman" will be around to some degree for a long time, but the problem isn't "teen porn woman" in itself, it's that that is the standard women are held to because that is what our culture is telling us is the standard for women's beauty.

Even if you "don't judge" there is still this giant apparatus laying around in advertising, porn and such that is directedly producing these insecurities and demands in people for money on a large scale.
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Lich Mong



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
Then you're going to need a better example.
I am not you.
I don't know what specific difficulties you are having with my statements. Asking me questions about which PARTS you are having trouble with -I feel- would be more useful then me wholesale retyping everything I've already typed.
Now, in saying that I am not claiming my words are perfect; I tell you now I know they are far from it, but I don't know what's wrong with them. I can't see exactly where the problem lies. You will have to help me in this two-way communication.


Quote:
"What is attractive" is the root issue here, not "how do you judge people you find to be attractive or not". Criticizing standards of beauty, pointing out the harm they cause, and working to try to get more realistic and diverse examples into media for what is attractive is how that harm will be negated. I'm sure "teen porn woman" will be around to some degree for a long time, but the problem isn't "teen porn woman" in itself, it's that that is the standard women are held to because that is what our culture is telling us is the standard for women's beauty.

"What is attractive" is something deeply rooted, and different, in every one of us. What I find perfectly attractive is not what you, or anyone else really, finds perfectly attractive. So, I would agree that the standardization of that beauty is something of a misnomer.

But, I would disagree that a "more realistic" definition of the term is what is in order. It's a game, it is not meant to be realistic. In some sense, making it MORE realistic could even be a problem. If Juliet chainsawed her former classmates, instead of the reanimated corpses of former classmates I hope we can agree that would make the game potentially more socially harmful.

The issue is, in any case, not really with the game itself, but how that game is then translated into the culture and real world. Thus, a more direct solution to the problem would not be to sweep the game under the rug, or make it "more realistic" but to make sure that there is a stronger divide beween what people think is real and what is not.

Enlightenment is the solution, not elimination.

Quote:
Even if you "don't judge" there is still this giant apparatus laying around in advertising and such that is directedly producing these insecurities in people for money.
But, that works because people feel they are being judged harshly.
Some of that judgment is good. I am probably healthier then I would otherwise would be because I am worried about my physical appearance. But, like most things, there is a point where it becomes harmful, which is, of course, the problem we are discussing; I just wanted to make it clear that I am not advocating for the elimination of judgment, but the alleviation of some of it.

And, really, it's the harm that is important. I will not speak for anyone but myself, but if I could take a painless pill to look like this, I would. Now, I guess, you would point out that that male body type is more healthy than the current depicted female equivalent. On average, I would agree, and I would also agree that is unfair. To be fair the comparable female magic pill should carry the same heath issues as the male's. The look itself -however- the illusion that is physical beauty, isn't a problem. What harm it might do to the person is.

But, the point I am trying to make is that the real problem is with the judgement being, as you say, "unrealistic," which -to me- shows the real issue. Not that judgment is being made, but that the judgment is being based on fantasy, not reality. That the expectations are being derived from the wrong context, not that the context itself is wrong, but how that context is being applied is wrong.

The problem is not that fantasies are unrealistic (I find such objection laughable, of course fantasies are unrealistic, that's the whole point of a fantasy) The problem is how that fantasy then affects real world expectations.
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Kylra



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
The issue is not with the game, but how that game is then translated into the culture and real world. Thus, a more direct solution to the problem would not be to sweep the game under the rug, or make it "more realistic" but to make sure that there is a stronger divide beween what people think is real and what is not.

This doesn't matter when we're talking about what people desire. It's trivial for people to desire unrealistic things or things that hurt others for their own benefit. People do it all the time.
Quote:
But, that works because people feel they are being judged harshly. Some of that judgment is good. I am probably healthier then I would otherwise would be because I am worried about my physical appearance. But, like most things, there is a point where it becomes harmful, which is, of course, the problem we are discussing; I just wanted to make it clear that I am not adverting for the elimination of judgment, but the alleviation of some of it.

You need to specify how you are going to reduce the judgement of attractiveness without modifying what people consider attractive.
Quote:
But, the point I am trying to make is that the real problem is with the judgement being, as you say, "unrealistic," which -to me- shows the real issue. Not that judgment is being made, but that the judgment is being based on fantasy, not reality. That the expectations are being derived from the wrong context, not that the context itself is wrong, but how that context is being applied is wrong.

People thinking these harmful things are attractive is reality. People want these things in reality. Keeping that as the dominant way women are portrayed and thought of culturally as a good thing will only reinforce that.

I do not see how you are going to change expectations without doing the same analysis I am doing here that you object to. I am saying "Hey, this is a common negative bundle of stereotype being applied to women. This is the harm it does when you think this is the way things should be or entertaining. So, stop holding this against women and demanding anything resembling female humans in media perform these stereotypes."
Quote:
The problem is not that fantasies are unrealistic (I find such objection laughable, of course fantasies are unrealistic, that's the whole point of a fantasy) The problem is how that fantasy then affects real world expectations.

What people fantasize about is a reflection of how they want the world to be.

Do you think people who don't like their women as sex objects demand all the media that does that to women?
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Lich Mong



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylra wrote:
This doesn't matter when we're talking about what people desire. It's trivial for people to desire unrealistic things or things that hurt others for their own benefit. People do it all the time.

In these statements -I feel- you are linking things that need not be linked. In fact, should not.

The simple action of desiring unrealistic things can -quite often- be GOOD. If I only wanted things I could get I would quickly lose motivation. It's the perpetual DRIVE for the unattainable that keeps us moving forward. Therefore the first part of your second sentence is not something that needs correcting in people.

It's the second part of that second sentence that is more of a problem.

Quote:
You need to specify how you are going to reduce the judgement of attractiveness without modifying what people consider attractive.
By having people judge imaginary things differently then real things.
We already do that, in fact.

That is, also, not to say that we shouldn't wish for unrealistic things, only that we need to be more cognitive of how that affects other people.

Let's say, hypothetically speaking of course, I feel comically large breasts on women are appealing. Let's give examples of how this might manifest in the real world.

1) It doesn't. I keep it to myself until the day I die.
2) One night, I ask my wife is she could put some huge water balloons under her shirt so that I might imagine she naturally has comically large breasts.
3) One night, I ask my wife if she could undergo dangerous experimental breast enlargement surgery so that I might imagine she naturally has comically large breasts.

Now, I would expect you to object to the second two examples. That you will say 2) could potentially damage my wife's self image is unavoidable. If that is the case, then I would agree it is not an action someone should take. I should not ask her to do it if doing so will case lasting harm, physically or emotionally.

With that in mind, I would hope we can ALL agree that 3) is unacceptable. In this example I would be asking her to forever alter her life, if it did not end.

So, then, is 1) the best option? Should I try to eliminate this complexity I have? Mitigate it as best I can? Suppress it? Is that what would be healthy for the relation? I would argue -generally speaking- 1) would not be correct either.

The HARM that this want might cause, in all cases, is the real problem. But, that does not mean I think the want itself needs to be eliminated. Everything could be harmful if handled improperly, but it is the improper handling that is an issue.

Quote:
People thinking these harmful things are attractive is reality. People want these things in reality. Keeping that as the dominant way women are portrayed and thought of culturally as a good thing will only reinforce that.
I agree that these issues exist, and need to be addressed -in some causes- by drastically changing society. However, the disagreement is coming in about how to best go about that.

Quote:
I do not see how you are going to change expectations without doing the same analysis I am doing here that you object to. I am saying "Hey, this is a common negative bundle of stereotype being applied to women. This is the harm it does when you think this is the way things should be or entertaining. So, stop holding this against women and demanding anything resembling female humans in media perform these stereotypes."
I would say the problem, then, is trying to affect your target audience. People LIKE playing games with girls that look like Juliet in them. So, you seem to be working on changing that like.
I, however, am arguing you are wasting your effort in doing so. The fact that people like playing such games is not a real issue; the real harm real girls experience in trying to look like Juliet is the issue.

Now, I am not saying that these two issues aren't linked, they certainly are. But, I am saying they don't need to be. People can like playing games with girls who have the appearance of Juliet in them without real girls experiencing harm. Just like I can kill people in a game without killing people in real life. That there might be a link between me killing in a game and me killing in real life does not mean games about killing should be removed, it means I should be removed.

Now, not every one SEES that link. You could could tell them that the game is harmful to women and try to raise the awareness of how that is so. That might help. But, you still don't need to go around changing girls that look like Juliet in doing that either, you also don't have to try and stop people from liking games with characters like Juliet to do that.

In my opinion, what you are doing is superficial, cosmetic. Giving a character like Juliet a baggy t-shirt and some heathy body fat isn't really going to help. Trying to get people to find Juliet -as she is- repugnant also it's going to help. These are simply wastes of effort.

Quote:
What people fantasize about is a reflection of how they want the world to be.

Do you think people who don't like their women as sex objects demand all the media that does that to women?
I'm having trouble understanding the question. I think you are asking me if I don't feel there is a link between the two, expectations about fantasies and real expectations. I hope I have already answered such issues above.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

samsally - does your book include head-binding?




i always thought that was really weird. i always wonder what impact it has on your brain.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wife says it's extremely likely to cause mental retardation or sociopathic behavior, if it causes the frontal lobe of the brain to not develop. So things that are associated with the frontal lobe are likely to be impacted.

Granted she hasn't studied in regards to them directly, but they've talked about how things like this can happen from not noticing a problem when they're born, or even from just putting things like headbands on a kid all the time while it's growing, so it can be inferred that doing that is even more detrimental. It might be a different part of the brain though...Not sure just how they do the wrapping to know for sure. I'm sure somewhere someone has done the study. My wife is interested in reading more though.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup! But it didn't have any real life pictures, so I didn't include it in case people didn't believe me.



It also has the extra supreme wasp waist.



Edit to add: Adyon, I'll try to remember to type out a bit of what the book actually has to say about head binding when I get home. I doubt it'll have much in the strictly scientific spectrum though, as it is first and foremost a book on fashion.
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