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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1150
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Also to help crayven out a little bit: it's not an official policy, not something that is mandated, but something that emerges. In government positions pay is given according to a strict set of rules that don't differentiate between men and women. I figure some businesses work this way too. But there's still a lot of places where a salary is negotiable, places where subjective decisions are made that allow traditional gender roles to seep through. And at the end - for whatever reason - men seem to come out on top. Which means we have stipulated, but not achieved gender equality.

A similar example: The EU doesn't recognise the concept of race, and hence there's no racism in the EU.
*ahem*

Or consider how good looking kids score slightly better when handing in the same work. Even when the graders are aware of this fact.

Not an official policy, but something that emerges from our current society.

It actually does sound like Europe has it a lot more worked out than we do in the U.S. Truthfully I'd heard about a lot of that before, and it's sad that the U.S. is pretty set on not unifying worker pay. Very few companies do that. We're free to give bonuses to whoever we want. Hell, look at all the companies a few years ago getting giant bonuses after causing the financial mess or being bailed out during it. It's just the standard that companies here can do whatever the hell they want, when they want. And our "big government" more often than not protects the companies right to do that. It's why I hate big government here. They're just doing it all wrong with the power. Either have limited government that deals with less and costs us less/runs us into less debt or actually regulate stuff properly instead of making it so politicians are elected while being bought off by companies. (or in some cases the politician is president or primary shareholderof the companies they pass laws in the favor of.) Ugh.

But the second part, yeah that's pretty much how it works, that suave or good looking people do get outs when competing with peers. And that's where you get gender politics at play, as they have to usually imitate what a "man's" version of good looking and confident are, and what a "woman's" idea of good looking and confident. Things like this are hard to deal with though. We all do it to some point.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhm... I know I'm not the youessian here, but isn't "unifying worker pay" the kind of "intrusion" that people usually mean when they use the term "big government"?

I guess I should also point out that my first paragraph was about the Netherlands, not about the whole EU. Although there is definitely EU law to this effect it's quite powerless and standards vary wildly from country to country. Unifying this would be "big government" and the kind of loss of sovereignty both our right-wing and populist parties fear.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a big government intrusion if you are a business owner or a republican.

if you are in a labor union, it's often the sort of thing you are working for. and will be attacked for by said business owner/republican because you want to reward lazy workers and yadda yadda yadda.

really, the problem business owners (not all, admittedly) have with anything like that is it damages their ability to beat each worker down to the lowest possible wage.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Dogen wrote:
But that wasn't my point.


Well aware of that! Just wanted to brighten the image of the Netherlands you were giving a bit.

Oh, I understand! Sorry, I didn't intend to give a dim view of the Netherlands. It's a lovely country from everything I've read or heard about it. I don't intend to say you guys have a massive problem (I don't actually know), and it seems that it's less of a problem there than it is here. I just have trouble believing any absolute statement, so I looked it up.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's an entirely fair point anyways, since crayven is the one trying to say that Europe is some kind of verdant feminist paradise, while at the same time telling us that feminism is evil and doomed to fail.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, i keep hoping some of our other european types will pop in and give us some ground truth. because crayven seems a bit given to sweeping generalizations that are only loosely connected to reality.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not sure about the situation in new zealand...
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, what do those people know - they are walking around upside down!
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
it's a big government intrusion if you are a business owner or a republican.

if you are in a labor union, it's often the sort of thing you are working for. and will be attacked for by said business owner/republican because you want to reward lazy workers and yadda yadda yadda.

really, the problem business owners (not all, admittedly) have with anything like that is it damages their ability to beat each worker down to the lowest possible wage.

Well it's true if you take it straight at what Republicans stand for, if we look at both sides, many of the Democrats only run on different platforms and pass laws that aren't necessarily to the same standards. It's where I find inherent flaw, when any one side is overly demonized or glorified. People are people, and I see a lot of god and bad from both sides. The problem that prevents a lot of those types of laws in the U.S. actually is that most of the ways they can think to do them only hurts small business owners more than anything. Big corporations either already have some sort set wage system like Wal-Mart or have so many different positions and abilities to give arbitrary names to their different employees that they'd escape any type of enforced law anyway. A lot of the best companies know that higher wages equal better workers anyway. Look at how Google pampers their employees. They know they'll bust their asses when they're working to produce good results, and of course all the best and brightest in the field want to work there.

But the companies that try to pay people as little as possible are often the ones that have "standard wages". So, while we do have businesses trying to unify worker pay those businesses usually don't reward effort. When I worked at Wal-Mart for instance I ended up picking up the slack for like 3 other people that shared my job all the time. They never got penalized for it. Maybe on occasion but bosses in those positions don't care as long as the work is getting done somehow. If I tried to point it out, one I'd be considered "whining" and two, they'd say "they hadn't really seen evidence they had done that". So, I can understand why unifying pay can seem bad too. Ugh. Why'd I mention politics? This can only end in people with differing opinions. =P

Either way, that's why I think that government regulation should either be done right where big business can't just worm out of it, or not at all where it hurts small businesses. I think that's why Democrats and Republicans alike usually don't pass some of the laws they could, with regard to the little businesses. The problem of course is they do pass laws, but more often than not it's someone doing it out of personal gain, not for what's right. And that happens regardless of party lines.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
yeah, i keep hoping some of our other european types will pop in and give us some ground truth. because crayven seems a bit given to sweeping generalizations that are only loosely connected to reality.


Sorry for being late (saw crayven's post this morning but was on a cell, so didn't feel like reserching/typing a lot).

Some student numbers from my university for the years 2011-2012:
Economics : 39 % Women
Engineering : 33 %
Sciences : 33 %

Though on the other hand
Total : 54 %
Law : 61 %
Medicine : 64 %

Gender roles are pretty obvious in the numbers, and the overall result is a that women tend to end up in the low paying fields (sociology, psychology, literature) at a higher rate than men.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, a lot of little businesses can be excluded by setting a minimum size for the regulations to take effect - so businesses with fewer than 25 or 50 or whatever employees don't have to comply.

speaking as an employee, what matters to me is overall fairness. i have worked for a small business, and when it was struggling, i was willing to take less to ensure the whole thing kept going - with the expectation that when it did well, i would also share in the rewards. (sometimes i did, sometimes i didn't). working for a big organization, i see a lot of money going through - and a lot of excuses and paperwork that keep staff from sharing in the rewards.

i actually don't know what this all has with wage unity. what i know is that i want to see some reward for my experience and hard work - not a lot of weaseling about why they can't give me one.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ops, you slipped in - thanks, Bart!

of course, i'm sure crayven will just say women don't want to do all that hard work to be in engineering and stuff.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LarsenSan wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Except of course for all those people who make a video with their SO who later sells it to some website without their knowledge. I mean it isn't as though there are entire websites dedicated to that.

Not all porn is produced by some hollywood porn studio.
And that, my dear, is a crime, something we are neither defending nor approving. Nice straw man.


STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO BACK THIS UP CHIEF! BEEN AT WORK ALL DAY, KIND OF EXPECTED SOME SORT OF RESPONSE BY NOW!


I mean you're not going to be able to back it up but i was hoping you'd at least make a feeble attempt.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Plus, there's voluntary and there's "you come from a country/area/city/family with no money and few prospects for a better life, and I'm offering you a few dollars a day to let me bang you on film and sell it to Americans." Which is totally voluntary, of course, but also coercive. For the record, I have no idea how many porn performers fall into this category, but preying on the economically disadvantaged is a common tactic of sex traffickers from what I understand.

How is this different in terms of coercion than telling a guy "you come from a country/area/city/family with no money and few prospects for a better life, and I'm offering you a few dollars a day to let me EXPLOIT you non-sexually for near slave wage for products to Americans." ?
It's not, it's the same thing. This isn't discrimination by sex, it's by wealth and it's called CAPITALISM.

Dogen wrote:

According to this site women in the Netherlands earn less than men when doing the same job. This paper found that, while a majority of Dutch women worked part time (by choice), those that worked full time earned less than their male counterparts, and that the gap was greatest at the top - a Dutch glass ceiling.

Let's just stop posting link to "studies" - even Adyon agreed that each study HAS an agenda behind it and it's not objective about their research...if they even bother with one.
Europeans are much more firely than their american counterparts, in other words we are more likely to protest - actively if things don't run how we want them. The recent bills that have been boycotted are proof enough of that.
So i find it safe to assume that if there would be such a huge discrimination based on sex we would see a 1960's style demonstration.
We don't.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
mouse wrote:
yeah, i keep hoping some of our other european types will pop in and give us some ground truth. because crayven seems a bit given to sweeping generalizations that are only loosely connected to reality.


Sorry for being late (saw crayven's post this morning but was on a cell, so didn't feel like reserching/typing a lot).

Some student numbers from my university for the years 2011-2012:
Economics : 39 % Women
Engineering : 33 %
Sciences : 33 %

Though on the other hand
Total : 54 %
Law : 61 %
Medicine : 64 %

Gender roles are pretty obvious in the numbers, and the overall result is a that women tend to end up in the low paying fields (sociology, psychology, literature) at a higher rate than men.

Are you serious?
Since when LAW and MEDICAL considered "low paying" ?!
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