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(07/21/12) Asked and Answered
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
@Motorcycle - you're forgetting the likes of Jesus and Buddha (or at least Jesus) who are pretty much always held up as exemplars, even if nobody winds up following their example. but Crim has always been held up as a good person, never really caught up in all this Patriarchy stuff. Squig and Slick get picked on because they represent all those bad things that all too many men do, and if the point is to get across the message that all too many men do harmful things that perpetuate an unfair social order, punishing the women for it is rather counterproductive.

but either way what exactly is "held accountable" supposed to mean for 'Nique? like, 'Nique gets sent to hell or something?

and wow crayven you missed the point of that comic. it's criticizing all those laws about contraception that people like Seymour support and how people like Seymour seem to think it's okay for them to pass laws about what a woman can do with her uterus.

then again, you really haven't established any of what you said you established so that's not really a surprise...

Ok i guess in America religion gets a lot to say about sexuality. And about my second point then?

Also this means Crim is an example?
He sounds like a "herbivore-man" - passive, and ..well actually he's pretty clueless to what a relation even IS as until now he is oblivious to FUscha's hints.
That is the feminist example? It's pretty sad if you ask me.
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Motorcycle



Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I didn't mention Jesus or Buddah because I'm tired & as you said, they haven't done anything to be targeted for. Criminy hasn't either but Glossy did drop off a bunch of feminism books on his stack in a drive by. Hell, I'd think the feminists would like the hell out of him since he helped empowered Fuscia just by being supportive & not trying to control her or make the choices for her. ("Don't worry, I'lll save you." Like a woman couldn't save herself if she put her mind to it. Which is exactly what Fuscia did.)

You're focusing too much of my poor choice of the phrase "Held accountable." I used it due to as you agreed with me Slick & Squig & others being targeted for their actions. Like their accounts Blue is always bringing up. But, no one in the strip is pointing out how the females aren't squeaky clean either. Which, in my mind, isn't fair. You have to take the good along with the bad & acknowledge a person as a whole. Not just one aspect of them.
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Catel



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 348
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
where does the comic say that all men are scum and all women are perfect beings

We know 'Nique... or we know her past.


But what are Liberty's, Minique's, Glossy's (and her friends) defaults ? Glossy is a Jerk Sue, but this is (until now) unintentional.
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Skittles



Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been paying attention to the continuing feminism debate. Has anyone mentioned yet that female perpetuation of female stereotype and (some) disadvantages has so far gone almost unmentioned. The closest it got was a small arc involving 'nique and li'l 'nique.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@crayven: so Crim's not a man because he doesn't fit your idea of a "man"

who put you in charge of deciding who is and isn't "manly"?

as for your second point, well, once again you miss the point. if you want a relationship to work and something about one or both of you is causing conflict, it will have to change. if you want it to work, you'll have to come to some kind of agreement, whether it's as trivial as leaving the toilet seat up* or as major as the kind of people you hang out with. expecting the other person to just put up with it is selfish and disrespectful. maybe it's not something you're willing to compromise on and maybe it'll wind up breaking you up, but if you want your relationship to work, you don't get your way 100% and never ever have to change; learning that isn't "sexist" or "unfair," it's part of the process of growing up, and it applies equally well to anyone.

@Motorcycle: well, the fact that the Sisterhood pretty much leaves Crim alone and only focuses on Squig and Slick and the Devil is proof right there that they don't oppose all men, they just oppose the ones who are chauvinist assholes.

but, really, if you want Sinfest saying that "women aren't squeaky clean," there's 'Nique, there's Fuchsia, there's Baby Blue...i mean, the comic is already saying that.

and of course @Catel: what does that have to do with whether or not Sinfest is saying "all women are perfect beings"

especially since it's not, there are plenty of women in Sinfest who are highly imperfect

*and i will say right now that it is my God-given right to leave the toilet seat up and if you so much as think of abridging that we are THROUGH


Last edited by ShadowCell on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sudoku



Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 206
Location: Malaysia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Crayven:
Here are a list of things you could do to improve your life in the next five seconds. One, do try and at least read properly, to understand what a person's message is. Two, despite the fact that your views and perspectives may be opposed by others, you can still listen to them without dying in an inferno and ponder on its own acceptance in your heart, without being a jerk. Third, improve your grammar and argumentative methods. Four, learn to see the difference between jokes and serious stuff.




In my opinion, the issues being portrayed in this comic are quite existent in reality. However, that does not mean that they are in the same degrees of crazy. Where some may see that today's strip tells us that all men are scum, some may instead see a strip where women hope for a world where they do not get put down into social prisons or under stereotypical ceilings which restrict the very definition of freedom in life. Tat may seem to be blowing things out of proportions with the whole thing, and I can't really say that I know what he's doing, but it could just be due to the very fact that it's a comic.


Read too deeply into something, and you get a storybook which hides propaganda and unfavored values. Read too lightly into something, and you may just miss the point. Thus, it's always possible for people to get conflicting opinions on an issue, or in this case, a webcomic strip.









There is a high chance that I do not have any idea what I just wrote here.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skittles wrote:
I haven't been paying attention to the continuing feminism debate. Has anyone mentioned yet that female perpetuation of female stereotype and (some) disadvantages has so far gone almost unmentioned. The closest it got was a small arc involving 'nique and li'l 'nique.


seeing as how usually we don't get past the "females don't have disadvantages at all!" and "FEMINISTS ARE EVIL BLARGHALAGRAHGA" parts, no, i'm afraid not
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Raal



Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generalization is of idiots!!!1
(spot the joke)
really though, its not very progressive.

Flavius Maximus wrote:
I try to change underwear at least once a week

Change we can believe in.
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Holocauxt



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raal wrote:
Generalization is of idiots!!!1
(spot the joke)


Umm...

OH!!!

OH! I see it!!!

It's irony!!!

What do I get?
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Motorcycle



Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the change we get when buying things? We can't believe in that?
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
@crayven: so Crim's not a man because he doesn't fit your idea of a "man"

who put you in charge of deciding who is and isn't "manly"?

as for your second point, well, once again you miss the point. if you want a relationship to work and something about one or both of you is causing conflict, it will have to change. if you want it to work, you'll have to come to some kind of agreement, whether it's as trivial as leaving the toilet seat up* or as major as the kind of people you hang out with. expecting the other person to just put up with it is selfish and disrespectful. maybe it's not something you're willing to compromise on and maybe it'll wind up breaking you up, but if you want your relationship to work, you don't get your way 100% and never ever have to change; learning that isn't "sexist" or "unfair," it's part of the process of growing up, and it applies equally well to anyone.

@Motorcycle: well, the fact that the Sisterhood pretty much leaves Crim alone and only focuses on Squig and Slick and the Devil is proof right there that they don't oppose all men, they just oppose the ones who are chauvinist assholes.

but, really, if you want Sinfest saying that "women aren't squeaky clean," there's 'Nique, there's Fuchsia, there's Baby Blue...i mean, the comic is already saying that.

and of course @Catel: what does that have to do with whether or not Sinfest is saying "all women are perfect beings"

especially since it's not, there are plenty of women in Sinfest who are highly imperfect

*and i will say right now that it is my God-given right to leave the toilet seat up and if you so much as think of abridging that we are THROUGH

I haven't said every man must abide to MY views of 'manly' i have ASKED ( and apparently you're a bit blind ) if this is what feminism thinks a man should be like.

I find it very hypocritical that when society tells women how to act it is the "patriarchix" and when the sisterhood tells men how to act ( that's why they leave Crim alone btw because he conforms to THEIR standards ) it is alright.
And you were saying about double-standards?

And to my second point: i'm not talking about small disagreements or the fact that yes both sides must give-up something to create a working system. I am talking about the attempt at teaching girls that it is ok to stay in abusive relationships because eventually "men will change".
All women stuck in this situation will ask "when will he change?" Answer: never, so move on, there's no point in trying to change something.
Also this is a bit unfair to men as it is to women.
We're telling them "men commit more crimes *because* they are men" "women *can* change men" and so on.
And eventually if men DO change most women find them too "weak" to be attractive and "not manly enough". So is this the right way to do things?
I say no. I say that if you don't like hoe things work you move on, not change others to fit you.
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Motorcycle



Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha! I just thought of an answer to the strip's question:Yes. A man in the strip has changed: Criminy. Yes is was due to a large part his actions that enabled Fuscia to change, but he also changed alot due mainly to her. He used to be nonconfrontional, described himself as an introvert, wasn't too sure of himself & had everything just so (by that I mean how he looked back then.) Look at him now: Book fort is gone, new clothes & hairstyle reflecting not being so uptight, willing to stand up for what he believes (Seymor, the Devil, bullies, Blue) & to do what needs to be done. Instead of cowering in fear he tamed the devil book she gave him. He told Seymor to STFU. He dug his way into Hell & faced Blue & fought a demonic pitchfork. He didn't back down from Big D & simply told the book it was it's choice who it went with.

Now granted he seems to be merely going with the flow when it comes to Fuscia & their relationship, but he is supportive of her. He still needs to be a bit more proactive in it though instead of always just reacting. But I'm sure she'll help him with that. Wink
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

uh, crayven, you are saying things that aren't actually logically connected to either what you said or what i said or really what anyone said.

i mean you straight-up called Crim an "herbivore man," with the attendant belittling of him. but, really, Crim is respectful and compassionate towards pretty much everyone. i should think that makes him a pretty good person no matter what label you attach. and if that's the feminist ideal of a man*, well, they could do worse. especially since the "herbivore man" is willing to face down the Devil and dig his way into Hell to help Fuchsia and such.

actually now that i think about it Crim is actually pretty fuckin' awesome

*incidentally, the only really consistent ideal man feminists have is "one who isn't a misogynistic asshole"

it is not the fact that the Patriarchy tells people how to act that the Sisterhood or really anyone else here objects to; it's how it is that the Patriarchy tells people to act. hence the chainsawing down stripper poles and such.

and everything you said about abusive relationships is completely irrelevant here because this comic doesn't say that at all so i'm not sure why you brought that up. and no, the relationship between Uncle Sam and Liberty (at least, as portrayed in the comic) is not abusive.

and...uh, where are you getting this idea that we're saying "men commit more crimes because they're men" and "women can change men"? and where did you get the idea that "most women" will find a man who "changes" to be "too weak" and "not manly enough"? in the comic, that sure hasn't seemed to bother Fuchsia.


Last edited by ShadowCell on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Motorcycle: In reality building a book fort and being introvert is likely to drive all females off and label you a weirdo.
He changed because she gave him attention - ironically she fell for his nerdy look - which is pretty far-fetched.
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Motorcycle



Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well yeah a book fort doesn't attract most people. Regardless of sex. But Fuscia fell for Criminy because he made her feel like someone worthy of being loved. http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3145
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