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(07/21/12) Asked and Answered
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
uh, crayven, you are saying things that aren't actually logically connected to either what you said or what i said or really what anyone said.

i mean you straight-up called Crim an "herbivore man," with the attendant belittling of him. but, really, Crim is respectful and compassionate towards pretty much everyone. i should think that makes him a pretty good person no matter what label you attach. and if that's the feminist ideal of a man*, well, they could do worse.

*incidentally, the only really consistent ideal man feminists have is "one who isn't a misogynistic asshole"

it is not the fact that the Patriarchy tells people how to act that the Sisterhood or really anyone else here objects to; it's how it is that the Patriarchy tells people to act. hence the chainsawing down stripper poles and such.

and everything you said about abusive relationships is completely irrelevant here because this comic doesn't say that at all so i'm not sure why you brought that up. and no, the relationship between Uncle Sam and Liberty (at least, as portrayed in the comic) is not abusive.

and...uh, where are you getting this idea that we're saying "men commit more crimes because they're men" and "women can change men"? and where did you get the idea that "most women" will find a man who "changes" to be "too weak" and "not manly enough"? in the comic, that sure hasn't seemed to bother Fuchsia.

No "herbivore man" = passive approach to relations. I didn't coin the term , i just use it.
And by chopping down strip poles doesn't the Sisterhood pretty much TELLS and actually FORCES people what to do?
Men wanting to watch women dancing provocatively and women getting PAID for it - it's a job for her and fun for him.
Compare it with "girls nights" where MALE strippers are PAID by hordes of horny women - they should be banned from that too? It's about equality after all, no?

Incidentally the only one feminism picked is PASSIVE - by that logic men should wait for women to initiate contact.
Fuscha pretty much jumped him and he STILL doesn't get it.
Should we follow his example?
Couple numbers would plummet to records lows if men waited on women to initiate a relationship.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you're still doing that "logic-free" thing. it's not really working. in fact it's doing the opposite of working, it's making you look like a total loon.

the Sisterhood didn't actually force anyone what to do. i mean, holy shit, remember that comic? it was a bunch of stripper poles in the middle of a park and the Sisterhood turned it into a playground where everyone, male and female alike, got to have fun, and all the misogynists gathered around and grudgingly gave props for it.

and then you go on this unrelated tangent about strippers and miss the point of that--the truth is, it actually is something feminists disagree about--but we'd have to have that whole "objectification of women" talk, but considering the stuff you've already said, that would probably just go in one ear and out the other.

i guess you don't actually read this comic, which is weird because then you come to the forum and complain about it anyways, because Crim actually really isn't portrayed as that passive. he was but then, see, he changed. he digs down into hell to rescue Fuchsia and he faces down the Devil over his evil tome. that's hardly "passive."

and then you try to spin some claim out of this that "couples everywhere would plummet if men had to wait for women to initiate contact"? what, because no woman would do that herself? women don't have sex drives and desires of their own? i'm starting to think you don't live in Belgium at all 'cuz you sure do have a medieval view of women. is this common in Belgium? Willem help me you are like a Belgium expert or something as far as i'm concerned is this normal?

incidentally, often, when military aircraft are targeted, they will release clouds of chaff to confound their pursuers' radar and escape. i think that's what's going on here. you keep throwing out all these disconnected little thoughts which are usually wrong anyways and...what, expecting me to hack together some sense out of them? doesn't work that way.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not very good logic, crayven. That Crim is the only guy not getting hassled by the Sisterhood doesn't necessarily mean they think people need to emulate him. It just means that his behavior falls among all behaviors the Sisterhood don't find offensive. That doesn't necessarily mean there aren't a lot of other behaviors that Crim doesn't engage in that are also accepted... here, it's like this:

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KDX



Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Sighs* Really? Must we do this again?

Alright.

1. Crim is a "herbivore" male. He IS, he takes a passive, not confrontational approach unless he has to do otherwise.

2. Personally I AGREE with this approach. Namely because it is the appropriate methodology for those who lack physical strength.

3. However! It can NOT solve all problems. As it is said, in an argument between a reasonable man and an unreasonable one, the unreasonable one will ALWAYS win. That's why sometimes the only solution is to beat the bad guy into the dirt.

4. Keeping all of this in mind. The objection that is to be made is that while feminism criticizes males for expecting females to be a certain way, they revel in the hypocrisy of expecting the exact same thing.

5. The example of this being used is the championing of the "herbivore," "effeminate," or "sensitive" male personality, in exclusivity. In short, they will only tolerate a Crim like male, and are completely intolerant of a strong-willed male persona.

6. Hypocrisy is NOT invalidation of an argument. Yes, many men are assholes, and yes, it does stem a great deal from testosterone.

7. This said, the argument here is not invalidation, but introspection on one's own actions. Judging both sides of the argument equally, which has NOT shown itself to be true in the arc.

8. This strip is a prime example, given that all the references, are to negative male qualities.
-Liberty is frustrated with Sam's temptations and infidelities.
-Lil 'nique finds her agitation is the sometimes "speak first, think never" behavior exhibited by many men.
-Glossy is apparently sexism and stereotypes.
-Monique for her part is a personal battle of identity in a world with patriarchal undertones of a widespread nature.

9. Again this are not false or invalid arguments. However, they are simply the continuation of a long line of negativity focused exclusively on men.

10. Men do not like being "piled on" any more than women do, and it's not any more fair just because the arguments are valid, or that the subjects are men.

Now that I have succinctly explained the train of logical thought, as well as the specific objections to the current arc, can there be some forum of damn arbitration? A realization that these objections are ALSO valid and should be recognized with the validity they deserve? Cause honestly the forum was never like this till the START of this lopsided arc, and I for one with my tiny, singular, opinion, am sick of it.

The rabid hostility is for people immature than we should be.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

where the hell did you get any of that from

seriously, are you high or something? that is like Thy-level disconnected senseless babbling, all the better because you conjured it all out of thin air

i mean i guess those are valid objections to the Bizarro Universe Sinfest where Crim is the championed ideal of the Sisterhood or whatever but since premise 4 there fails the "reality" test it looks like your "logical train of thought" went off the rails and into the River of Inanity

actually now that i think about it premise 5 pretty much falls apart too because i don't know what you call it when you stare down the Devil over a book but i'm pretty sure that makes you "strong-willed"
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
you're still doing that "logic-free" thing. it's not really working. in fact it's doing the opposite of working, it's making you look like a total loon.

the Sisterhood didn't actually force anyone what to do. i mean, holy shit, remember that comic? it was a bunch of stripper poles in the middle of a park and the Sisterhood turned it into a playground where everyone, male and female alike, got to have fun, and all the misogynists gathered around and grudgingly gave props for it.

and then you go on this unrelated tangent about strippers and miss the point of that--the truth is, it actually is something feminists disagree about--but we'd have to have that whole "objectification of women" talk, but considering the stuff you've already said, that would probably just go in one ear and out the other.

i guess you don't actually read this comic, which is weird because then you come to the forum and complain about it anyways, because Crim actually really isn't portrayed as that passive. he was but then, see, he changed. he digs down into hell to rescue Fuchsia and he faces down the Devil over his evil tome. that's hardly "passive."

and then you try to spin some claim out of this that "couples everywhere would plummet if men had to wait for women to initiate contact"? what, because no woman would do that herself? women don't have sex drives and desires of their own? i'm starting to think you don't live in Belgium at all 'cuz you sure do have a medieval view of women. is this common in Belgium? Willem help me you are like a Belgium expert or something as far as i'm concerned is this normal?

incidentally, often, when military aircraft are targeted, they will release clouds of chaff to confound their pursuers' radar and escape. i think that's what's going on here. you keep throwing out all these disconnected little thoughts which are usually wrong anyways and...what, expecting me to hack together some sense out of them? doesn't work that way.

So i'm an aircraft now..well at least your opinion of people disagreeing with you is improving - you're actually maturing.

I'm saying that most women won't initiate contact, we can even do a quick try, right now if you want , even on the internet.
Take a dating site, ANY site and create a random male profile and then write what you think a man should be like , passive, non-initiative taking, and we can comeback in a week to see if you get ANY hits.
Probably not, maybe 1-2 if you put a handsome guy who's over 180cm tall and rich but that's it. Women like men to take charge - and if you feel this is "medieval" then you, son, need to hear what WOMEN themselves say they want in a man, because you're way off the track Smile

Crim doesn't really change that much. He still is oblivious to Fuscha's advances and you keep bringing up the "into hell" journey he made which is more of a plot mechanic without which otherwise the story could NOT keep on going and would have stopped there rather than a true change within him.
He still is passive and let's face it they don't DO anything really expect sitting under the tree and reading.

Yes, obviously ( for you not so obvious it seems ) the stripper poles are metaphors ( they GROW like pants <.< ) and symbolize the fact that society sees it as natural and ok and the devil is supposedly the patriarchy's influence. And then out of nowhere comes Trycicle Sue with her gang and start inserting her OWN influence into society ( the metaphorical chopping of those poles ).I'm not saying a park is worse than stripper poles - but who are they to get to say what people should do?
Or why cut them ALL? Perhaps society SHOULD accept both things.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motorcycle wrote:
Well yeah a book fort doesn't attract most people. Regardless of sex. But Fuscia fell for Criminy because he made her feel like someone worthy of being loved. http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3145

That doesn't happen in reality - no woman is choosing a guy for "making her feel like a human being" alone.
Either that or i am a bit bitter from my experiences with shallow women.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not everything that happens in the comic has to be a direct representation of reality.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1163
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH my god...I knew the haters would be out in droves for this thread. Why? Because people are immature whiners, and "oh no he didn't say something about men". FFS.

Pardons before I say anymore...I'm pretty drunk from a pool party over at a friend's ranch house. I'm ranting without my normal logical barrier that I use to rationalize things.

KDX wrote:
3. However! It can NOT solve all problems. As it is said, in an argument between a reasonable man and an unreasonable one, the unreasonable one will ALWAYS win. That's why sometimes the only solution is to beat the bad guy into the dirt.

Psh, whatever. Says who? Almost always a reasonable one wins out in the end as long as he doesn't become jaded. The unreasonable people who get caught up in their own BS often end up burning themselves. The reasonable person end up just being content in themselves.

KDX wrote:
4. Keeping all of this in mind. The objection that is to be made is that while feminism criticizes males for expecting females to be a certain way, they revel in the hypocrisy of expecting the exact same thing.

Feminism doesn't ask men to change that much. It's more of a stop treating me like utter shit and not respecting me or my abilities, only if I have nice tits and ass. That's not exactly a lot.

KDX wrote:
5. The example of this being used is the championing of the "herbivore," "effeminate," or "sensitive" male personality, in exclusivity. In short, they will only tolerate a Crim like male, and are completely intolerant of a strong-willed male persona.

Hahhahaaaaaaa....W...T...F...That just sounds like whining. No. It's not...WTF.

KDX wrote:
6. Hypocrisy is NOT invalidation of an argument. Yes, many men are assholes, and yes, it does stem a great deal from testosterone.

But didn't you just call women hypocritcial above? Wouldn't that not make them wrong in what they believe? Are yo contradicting yourself? Haaa.

KDX wrote:
9. Again this are not false or invalid arguments. However, they are simply the continuation of a long line of negativity focused exclusively on men.

Didn't you know? Women are all perfect angels infallible in anything they do. Or maybe it's just that the plot is currently doing so. Shit, things focus from time to time. That's the nature of storytelling.

KDX wrote:
Now that I have succinctly explained the train of logical thought, as well as the specific objections to the current arc, can there be some forum of damn arbitration? A realization that these objections are ALSO valid and should be recognized with the validity they deserve? Cause honestly the forum was never like this till the START of this lopsided arc, and I for one with my tiny, singular, opinion, am sick of it.

The rabid hostility is for people immature than we should be.

Really? I thought it sounded like the forums have always been pretty hostile. And you're sounding pretty "judgemental" through all of this, so how do you think responses are going to be? Calm and collected, or hostile? Hostile? You don't say! Who could have ever imagined. =D


ShadowCell wrote:

and...uh, where are you getting this idea that we're saying "men commit more crimes because they're men" and "women can change men"?

Technically I think it's along the debates he and I were having in the other thread. But I am a little too impaired to get the full range of this conversation, so I'm going to not say for sure.



And...uh, I was gonna respond to more than KDX, but heck with it. I'm not sure I'm even making much sense other than laughing at whatever KDX said that even in my alcohol-ridden brain I can see through like it was water. Maybe he had some deeper meaning, but in my current state it just reeks of "Waaahhhh. Feminists are evil and trying to say things, but I believe differently! So I'm right even if what I say contradicts what I say!". Yep. And if I made no sense, I blame it on the alcohol.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Not everything that happens in the comic has to be a direct representation of reality.

EXACTLY!!!!!

FFS, serious people. =P
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
I'm saying that most women won't initiate contact, we can even do a quick try, right now if you want , even on the internet.
Take a dating site, ANY site and create a random male profile and then write what you think a man should be like , passive, non-initiative taking, and we can comeback in a week to see if you get ANY hits.
Probably not, maybe 1-2 if you put a handsome guy who's over 180cm tall and rich but that's it. Women like men to take charge - and if you feel this is "medieval" then you, son, need to hear what WOMEN themselves say they want in a man, because you're way off the track Smile

Psh, most women aren't as stereotypical as you like to think. Good try though. Women do look for looks, but any number of their own influences change what they want. And I've been out at clubs. Women quite often DO make contact. But in the cases of Crim, he's not going to meet someone at a club. And in those positions he'll find a girl that DOES make contact, just like Fuchsia did. It does happen, even if you don't want to believe so.

crayven wrote:
Crim doesn't really change that much. He still is oblivious to Fuscha's advances and you keep bringing up the "into hell" journey he made which is more of a plot mechanic without which otherwise the story could NOT keep on going and would have stopped there rather than a true change within him.
He still is passive and let's face it they don't DO anything really expect sitting under the tree and reading.

I think it's more that Tat doesn't feel the need to show anything more if there is anything, but right now their relationship feels pretty natural and ideal. They care for one another, and they're willing to fight for each other. That's enough. So, if they want to spend more time lounging on each other than "getting it on" instantly...So what? It's pretty obvious by what we saw during him breaking into hell he does care for her. And vice-versa.

crayven wrote:
Yes, obviously ( for you not so obvious it seems ) the stripper poles are metaphors ( they GROW like pants <.< ) and symbolize the fact that society sees it as natural and ok and the devil is supposedly the patriarchy's influence. And then out of nowhere comes Trycicle Sue with her gang and start inserting her OWN influence into society ( the metaphorical chopping of those poles ).I'm not saying a park is worse than stripper poles - but who are they to get to say what people should do?
Or why cut them ALL? Perhaps society SHOULD accept both things.

Because one is trying to FORCE people to be a way. A park is just a fun thing. The devil planting those thing to begin with was an agenda. It's his destroying things. He enjoys it. How is THIS the point you're arguing about? It seems illogical even in my less than sober state to ask that someone manipulating others should be allowed to do so, while tearing that down and BUILDING A PLAYGROUND is bad.

*edit* How am I posting this fast while impaired that no one beat me to the post? Sorry...triple post. Holy damn.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:

Because one is trying to FORCE people to be a way. A park is just a fun thing. The devil planting those thing to begin with was an agenda. It's his destroying things. He enjoys it. How is THIS the point you're arguing about? It seems illogical even in my less than sober state to ask that someone manipulating others should be allowed to do so, while tearing that down and BUILDING A PLAYGROUND is bad.

*edit* How am I posting this fast while impaired that no one beat me to the post? Sorry...triple post. Holy damn.

Because FORCING people to be a way is no way better than the patriarchy they 're supposed to fight against.
It's just a different OPPRESSIVE regime.
They get to over-write what people want. Whether you or I think stripping is moral or not we DO NOT have the right to tell others they can't do it.
And this is the main problem - feminism thinks they are entitled to tell people how to behave.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
crayven wrote:
I'm saying that most women won't initiate contact, we can even do a quick try, right now if you want , even on the internet.
Take a dating site, ANY site and create a random male profile and then write what you think a man should be like , passive, non-initiative taking, and we can comeback in a week to see if you get ANY hits.
Probably not, maybe 1-2 if you put a handsome guy who's over 180cm tall and rich but that's it. Women like men to take charge - and if you feel this is "medieval" then you, son, need to hear what WOMEN themselves say they want in a man, because you're way off the track Smile

Psh, most women aren't as stereotypical as you like to think. Good try though. Women do look for looks, but any number of their own influences change what they want. And I've been out at clubs. Women quite often DO make contact. But in the cases of Crim, he's not going to meet someone at a club. And in those positions he'll find a girl that DOES make contact, just like Fuchsia did. It does happen, even if you don't want to believe so.

I find the quite often part hard to believe really - otherwise men wouldn't be complaining and we wouldn't see a lot of comments saying "nice guys finnish last".
The truth is it DOESN'T happen very often - when it happens it is actually a miracle.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:

Because one is trying to FORCE people to be a way. A park is just a fun thing. The devil planting those thing to begin with was an agenda. It's his destroying things. He enjoys it. How is THIS the point you're arguing about? It seems illogical even in my less than sober state to ask that someone manipulating others should be allowed to do so, while tearing that down and BUILDING A PLAYGROUND is bad.

*edit* How am I posting this fast while impaired that no one beat me to the post? Sorry...triple post. Holy damn.

Because FORCING people to be a way is no way better than the patriarchy they 're supposed to fight against.
It's just a different OPPRESSIVE regime.
They get to over-write what people want. Whether you or I think stripping is moral or not we DO NOT have the right to tell others they can't do it.
And this is the main problem - feminism thinks they are entitled to tell people how to behave.

Are we talking about real feminists, or comic feminists? Because if we're talking about real feminists then you're apparently hanging out with different feminists than I am. The feminists I know are about giving women choices they don't have now - the freedom to decide if they want to strip, for instance.

I don't really give a fuck what comic feminists do, any more than I gave a fuck about snatch-o-grams or angel hunting or that Zork needs bacon.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:

Because one is trying to FORCE people to be a way. A park is just a fun thing. The devil planting those thing to begin with was an agenda. It's his destroying things. He enjoys it. How is THIS the point you're arguing about? It seems illogical even in my less than sober state to ask that someone manipulating others should be allowed to do so, while tearing that down and BUILDING A PLAYGROUND is bad.

*edit* How am I posting this fast while impaired that no one beat me to the post? Sorry...triple post. Holy damn.

Because FORCING people to be a way is no way better than the patriarchy they 're supposed to fight against.
It's just a different OPPRESSIVE regime.
They get to over-write what people want. Whether you or I think stripping is moral or not we DO NOT have the right to tell others they can't do it.
And this is the main problem - feminism thinks they are entitled to tell people how to behave.

I think you're mistaking "We're not going to take this abuse anymore" with "We're going to tell you what to do now". If you read most things about feminism, it's more about female empowerment not to take whatever men are willing to give them more than "changing men". The changing men stuff more often comes from non-feminists. I see plenty of things from "girly" magazines like Cosmo, that are anything but feminist, but often have articles about "How to change a bad boy into a good man", etc. The common theme for people not caught up in equality is that, "boys will be boys", so change them into something you can control at least. Feminism is more the side of, "tell them we aren't willing to be treated like dirt". The understanding is that the person isn't willing to compromise, and they're willing to wait to be with any guy until they find one willing to respect them for what they believe, instead of trying to just change an asshole.

Female empowerment, not male dis-empowerment.

crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:
Psh, most women aren't as stereotypical as you like to think. Good try though. Women do look for looks, but any number of their own influences change what they want. And I've been out at clubs. Women quite often DO make contact. But in the cases of Crim, he's not going to meet someone at a club. And in those positions he'll find a girl that DOES make contact, just like Fuchsia did. It does happen, even if you don't want to believe so.

I find the quite often part hard to believe really - otherwise men wouldn't be complaining and we wouldn't see a lot of comments saying "nice guys finnish last".
The truth is it DOESN'T happen very often - when it happens it is actually a miracle.

Granted you don't live in the U.S., so I guess it could be a cultural difference, but I see women all the time hitting on men. Granted the man has to be accepting and sometimes even make the moves from there. But I've seen my fair share of forward women. It's only because we used to SAY men approached women that we had a culture where women didn't approach men. I finally convinced my cousin that women hit on men and got him to stop acting so "stand-offish", and low and behold he started getting hit on left and right. It's all about the fact that women in those situations are tired of being hit on by drunk men with their "You want this" attitudes, and chatting up a nice guy that's not trying so hard, thus making himself look better, is so much more appealing. Sure, they're more likely to pick a "cute" guy, but that's human nature. Confidence without being "pushy" is very attractive.
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