welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

(07/21/12) Asked and Answered
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sammich



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It kind of makes me sad that 'Nique's fan has an angry, expression, Lady Liberty looks sad, and Afro Sister and 'Nique are in aggressive postures. With all of them except for 'Nique clearly reacting to male sexuality. It concerns me that the takeaway here might be, "Male sexuality is bad and men should feel bad for their sexuality." I guess that isn't surprising after Dworkin was included in Glossie's care package.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:

Because one is trying to FORCE people to be a way. A park is just a fun thing. The devil planting those thing to begin with was an agenda. It's his destroying things. He enjoys it. How is THIS the point you're arguing about? It seems illogical even in my less than sober state to ask that someone manipulating others should be allowed to do so, while tearing that down and BUILDING A PLAYGROUND is bad.

*edit* How am I posting this fast while impaired that no one beat me to the post? Sorry...triple post. Holy damn.

Because FORCING people to be a way is no way better than the patriarchy they 're supposed to fight against.
It's just a different OPPRESSIVE regime.
They get to over-write what people want. Whether you or I think stripping is moral or not we DO NOT have the right to tell others they can't do it.
And this is the main problem - feminism thinks they are entitled to tell people how to behave.

Are we talking about real feminists, or comic feminists? Because if we're talking about real feminists then you're apparently hanging out with different feminists than I am. The feminists I know are about giving women choices they don't have now - the freedom to decide if they want to strip, for instance.

I don't really give a fuck what comic feminists do, any more than I gave a fuck about snatch-o-grams or angel hunting or that Zork needs bacon.

By what standards do you asses who is and who isn't a real feminist?
There are some feminists out there who will say YOU are not the real feminists and are too weak on the issue(s).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10607
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fine. Whether someone thinks I'm a feminist doesn't affect how I think or act - I'll work for equality regardless of what label someone wants to apply to me. I judge feminists by their actions. If they're working to improve equality, they're a feminist in my book. I don't agree with all feminists, and they certainly don't all agree with me. That's been brought up about nine million times so far on this forum, too. Feminism is a big basket, and everyone keeps trying to say "feminists do X," even though only some might do it. So the fact that I differ greatly from many feminists doesn't bother me at all.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
That's fine. Whether someone thinks I'm a feminist doesn't affect how I think or act - I'll work for equality regardless of what label someone wants to apply to me. I judge feminists by their actions. If they're working to improve equality, they're a feminist in my book. I don't agree with all feminists, and they certainly don't all agree with me. That's been brought up about nine million times so far on this forum, too. Feminism is a big basket, and everyone keeps trying to say "feminists do X," even though only some might do it. So the fact that I differ greatly from many feminists doesn't bother me at all.

So you're not really a feminist, you're a humanist who is labeled by others a feminist.
And being part of a group does bring in some responsabilities - you take the good with the bad.
If you say you're a democrat you automatically are judged as "a-ok" by democrats and "a marxist communist socialist" by republicans and so on with other groups. One cannot escape being judged by the people whom he claims to agree with.

In the end your views sound more humanist than feminist.


Now if you'll excuse me, i have furniture to move :/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naw, his views sound feminist. On top of everything, he chose to label himself, not someone else labeling him a feminist. It's just what you choose to believe feminist is about. That's just it, you're trying to apply labels to him just the way other feminists he doesn't agree with would try and label him "not a feminist". Shit, people have different opinions, but the fact of the matter is, Dogen and many here ACTUALLY conform more to what the definition of "feminism" IS. So, I'd say that makes THEM the real feminists, not the others you want to label feminists, so you can hate on them. Judge the others as "radical feminists" if you must, but otherwise, I think the whole idea of trying to "label" people is ridiculous and ignorant. I've said this before, but people are people. How they choose to act should reflect your oppinon of them, not what they call themselves.

I mean, I wouldn't even bother to call myself a feminists other than it makes it easier to associate myself with others of like-minds. Cause I do hate labels. But it's just easier. And having people argue that you can't be one way because you claim to be another way is just silly.

But if you want argues on feminism, just check out some of the other lengthy threads that went on here, where people argued over methods and beliefs, particularly Dogen vs and this particular person going round for round. And a few others like Mouse and I saying her views seemed pretty disappointing. I think I actually said something like "I don't want to live in your world where everything is so negative. O_O" or close to that. People won't always agree, even within a group.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wingcap



Joined: 09 Sep 2011
Posts: 161
Location: Advocating the Devil.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@comic: Collectivly? No.

@people: TL;DR: Play nice :B

Can you all please stop looking at peoples arguments the way you feel like seeing them? You people are so narrow minded. Also just because a comic doesn't specifically SAY something doesn't mean it doesn't imply it. Strongly. Some of you seem to be missing that a lot.

Honestly you guys. I mean I know Aydon was drunk at first but you don't seem to be being very fair.

Also why is it that everyone predicts a forum fight in several threads after the last one, but it doesn't happen until no-one suspects it? You could become a great psychologist analysing these forums.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1160
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wingcap wrote:
Honestly you guys. I mean I know Aydon was drunk at first but you don't seem to be being very fair.

Also why is it that everyone predicts a forum fight in several threads after the last one, but it doesn't happen until no-one suspects it? You could become a great psychologist analysing these forums.

I'm not sure how I'm not being fair, but I'll concede I probably came off as very blunt and rude, as I was just responding with whatever popped into my head with the state I was in. As far as fairness, I think most of what I've said here has to do only with "not judging people" by what you believe they are, so...Yeah I'm not sure. Maybe after I sleep I'll re-read it and figure it out, but do feel free to point it out if so. Normally I do like playing the neutral party more than fighting for a specific cause, so I like to see when I don't seem fair. Wink

Either way I probably should avoid posting "impaired" too much, as it does tend to take out the type of thinking I like to put into everything, considering everything from both sides, that is.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wingcap



Joined: 09 Sep 2011
Posts: 161
Location: Advocating the Devil.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm talking collectively. There are people who make an argument. Then there are people who respond. The impression I get is just that the people responding seem to be only seeing the first groups points in a specific way, whereas I can see the point much fairer than it is portrayed by the, shall we say, arguee.
Let me find an example.
EDIT: right this might be a bit haphazard.
Ok here we go. No offence to anyone, just because you happen to have made a good example of my point doesn't mean I hate you. Jeez. I get that impression sometimes. Anyway.†

First, Motorcycle said this on page one.†

Motorcycle wrote:
The whole feminism arc has been telling us in nearly every strip of it how everything is Man's fault & how only the Women do anything good. Which simply is not the case. Also none of the females are being held accountable nor the males being given what credit they are due. Granted, ALOT of the males of the strip don't have much, but they do have some.

So shadowcell responded:
ShadowCell wrote:
examples of that please?

i can think of a couple counterexamples, like Slick and Squig at least starting to consider what Glossy et al are saying, before they start trying to rationalize it away

which is a damn sight better than a lot of posters here...

And in turn:
Motorcycle wrote:
Examples of which one, Shadowcell? I just got off work so a bit tired & fuzzy thinkin. †& yes Squig & Slick considering have been some points in their favor. With Squig actually contemplating it moreso than Slick.

Now it begins.†
ShadowCell wrote:
Quote:
The whole feminism arc has been telling us in nearly every strip of it how everything is Man's fault & how only the Women do anything good.


examples of that.

also, how exactly are they supposed to be "held accountable"? held accountable to what? held accountable by whom?

Shadowcell went straight to the argument. He earlier made the point about the counter examples of slick and Squig as if Motorcycle completely forgot about them. Despite Motorcycle having said that he acknowledges the males in the strip.†

Right, so then Motorcycle responded:
Motorcycle wrote:
You got me on the held accountable. One can't exactly be held accountable. What I'm trying to say is how the males seem to be targeted because of what they have done & the way they have been. Only fair that the women do to. Monigue started her change thanks to Hell pointing out just all the work she had done for them. That doesn't change the fact that she DID tease men on purpose & for her own amusement which everyone is just glossing over. Fuscia, one of my favorite chars, spent who knows how long tempting & torturing before she realised she didn't have to.†

My main point is that people, both men & women, are people. They have their good points & their bad points. But pretty much the strip is implying that anyone male has no good points. Slick is pretty much a sexist bastard, but he is also a true friend, cares deeply for Monique & has always supported her. Squig is a pig both literally & figuratively, but he listens, tries & will sae his friends even though he's scared out of his mind. Seymor, he's tried to help Pebbles as best he can. Criminy is well, Criminy.

Take note of the first paragraph, where Moto clearly explains that he doesn't literally mean punished. Just called out on, have their flaws pointed out.†
Then crayven jumps into the fray. Although, he makes his own points.†
crayven wrote:
What i don't get is, why do they even want men to change?
First of all we got this comic:
with its ending line that pretty much says : "you men stay the fuck away from us".
And now they want men to change...why?
We already established that tricycle girl wants nothing to do with men and since all the girls in the latest comic have either "the patriatrix" code or similar signs of feminism inffluence it is safe to assume they think the same.

Also isn't this a cause for couple break-ups?
The wrong notion that women can "change" men and they keep staying into bad relationships, even abussive ones in hopes of "changing" him?

So shadowcell responds.†
ShadowCell wrote:
@Motorcycle - you're forgetting the likes of Jesus and Buddha (or at least Jesus) who are pretty much always held up as exemplars, even if nobody winds up following their example. but Crim has always been held up as a good person, never really caught up in all this Patriarchy stuff. Squig and Slick get picked on because they represent all those bad things that all too many men do, and if the point is to get across the message that all too many men do harmful things that perpetuate an unfair social order, punishing the women for it is rather counterproductive.

but either way what exactly is "held accountable" supposed to mean for 'Nique? like, 'Nique gets sent to hell or something?†

and wow crayven you missed the point of that comic. it's criticizing all those laws about contraception that people like Seymour support and how people like Seymour seem to think it's okay for them to pass laws about what a woman can do with her uterus.

then again, you really haven't established any of what you said you established so that's not really a surprise...

First, Shadowcell does point out that not all males in the strip are held up as evil. Fair point. But then he still takes 'being held accountable' as being literal punishment, when Moto pointed out it was not. Thus, he missed the point.†
And THEN he went off at crayven. He says crayven missed the point of the comic he quoted, which imo he did not. Infact, shadowcell makes pretty much the same conclusion, but in a different way. crayven may have been looking at it a little simpler than Shadowcell, but the same point was made by both of them, despite Shadowcell saying it wasn't - that glossy think men shouldn't mess with them.†
Shadowcell also says that crayven didn't establish his points. But he did - he said it was established that glossy wants nothing to do with men (though I assume he meant only in relation to relationships etc, not fighting them). This, given glossy's actions throughout, is pretty obvious, and thus it is already established. Like he said it was.†

Now let's see what else.†
Right well, crayven responded on page two.†
crayven wrote:

Also this means Crim is an example?
He sounds like a "herbivore-man" - passive, and ..well actually he's pretty clueless to what a relation even IS as until now he is oblivious to FUscha's hints.
That is the feminist example? It's pretty sad if you ask me.

Catel also said:
Catel wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
where does the comic say that all men are scum and all women are perfect beings

We know 'Nique... or we know her past.


But what are Liberty's, Minique's, Glossy's (and her friends) defaults ? Glossy is a Jerk Sue, but this is (until now) unintentional.

So Shadowcell responded.†
ShadowCell wrote:
@crayven: so Crim's not a man because he doesn't fit your idea of a "man"

who put you in charge of deciding who is and isn't "manly"?

as for your second point, well, once again you miss the point. if you want a relationship to work and something about one or both of you is causing conflict, it will have to change. if you want it to work, you'll have to come to some kind of agreement, whether it's as trivial as leaving the toilet seat up* or as major as the kind of people you hang out with. expecting the other person to just put up with it is selfish and disrespectful. maybe it's not something you're willing to compromise on and maybe it'll wind up breaking you up, but if you want your relationship to work, you don't get your way 100% and never ever have to change; learning that isn't "sexist" or "unfair," it's part of the process of growing up, and it applies equally well to anyone.

@Motorcycle: well, the fact that the Sisterhood pretty much leaves Crim alone and only focuses on Squig and Slick and the Devil is proof right there that they don't oppose all men, they just oppose the ones who are chauvinist assholes.

but, really, if you want Sinfest saying that "women aren't squeaky clean," there's 'Nique, there's Fuchsia, there's Baby Blue...i mean, the comic is already saying that.

and of course @Catel: what does that have to do with whether or not Sinfest is saying "all women are perfect beings"

especially since it's not, there are plenty of women in Sinfest who are highly imperfect

*and i will say right now that it is my God-given right to leave the toilet seat up and if you so much as think of abridging that we are THROUGH

First, he said that Crimney doesn't fit into crayvens idea of a man. Go look at crayvens quote, then come back. Can anyone actually see him say he doesn't think Crim is a man? Or imply it? Ok. Crayven says crim isint the manliest man ever. He didn't call crim a woman though - far from it. Or rather, he didn't say or imply in any way that crim wasn't a proper man, just that he was different. Shadowcell blew that way out of proportion.†
On the second point, Shadow thinks crayven spoke about simple change. I believe he thought that the Sisterhood wanted ALL men to change altogether towards their views - not just changing to accommodate others. Not the hugest difference ever, but again, a point was made, and then immediately taken wrong way, for arguments sake, it seems.†
On his take of Catels point, what Catel said has a lot to do with what sinfest is saying about women. It isint saying anything! Besides 'nique, most of the female cast have had little to no focus on their worse aspects, while this happens to the male cast all the time. The strip neglects to show women doing bad things, only men.†
Anyway, I hope that gets my point across. Do I need to go into any more posts? I hope not, this takes way to long to be worth it.†

And finally, apologies Shadowcell that all of my criticism is directed at you. You see, I am taking my examples from the first two pages, where you make the only good examples of my point. Not to say I lack good examples or anything.†
_________________


Last edited by Wingcap on Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:

Because one is trying to FORCE people to be a way. A park is just a fun thing. The devil planting those thing to begin with was an agenda. It's his destroying things. He enjoys it. How is THIS the point you're arguing about? It seems illogical even in my less than sober state to ask that someone manipulating others should be allowed to do so, while tearing that down and BUILDING A PLAYGROUND is bad.

*edit* How am I posting this fast while impaired that no one beat me to the post? Sorry...triple post. Holy damn.

Because FORCING people to be a way is no way better than the patriarchy they 're supposed to fight against.
It's just a different OPPRESSIVE regime.
They get to over-write what people want. Whether you or I think stripping is moral or not we DO NOT have the right to tell others they can't do it.
And this is the main problem - feminism thinks they are entitled to tell people how to behave.

I think you're mistaking "We're not going to take this abuse anymore" with "We're going to tell you what to do now". If you read most things about feminism, it's more about female empowerment not to take whatever men are willing to give them more than "changing men". The changing men stuff more often comes from non-feminists. I see plenty of things from "girly" magazines like Cosmo, that are anything but feminist, but often have articles about "How to change a bad boy into a good man", etc. The common theme for people not caught up in equality is that, "boys will be boys", so change them into something you can control at least. Feminism is more the side of, "tell them we aren't willing to be treated like dirt". The understanding is that the person isn't willing to compromise, and they're willing to wait to be with any guy until they find one willing to respect them for what they believe, instead of trying to just change an asshole.

Female empowerment, not male dis-empowerment.


Most things about feminism? Are you sure you want to use that phrase? It wouldn't be a very fair assessment of most things feminists have done for women in the past, but if you've read it, you've read it. If they're looking for female empowerment, then they have misunderstood the meaning of feminism. It's about equality for women to men. That's it. If most things you've read about feminism have to do with female empowerment, you seriously need to revise your library.

Dogen wrote:
That's fine. Whether someone thinks I'm a feminist doesn't affect how I think or act - I'll work for equality regardless of what label someone wants to apply to me. I judge feminists by their actions. If they're working to improve equality, they're a feminist in my book. I don't agree with all feminists, and they certainly don't all agree with me. That's been brought up about nine million times so far on this forum, too. Feminism is a big basket, and everyone keeps trying to say "feminists do X," even though only some might do it. So the fact that I differ greatly from many feminists doesn't bother me at all.


You know what the problem is here, Russ? That many feminists see fit to use "men" this and "men" that, but when it comes to the reverse it's "not all" and "not most." Well, that's bullshit. The bolded is the brunt of the problem. How is it many feminists seem to forget to include this tidbit? Andrea Dworkin, incidentally, never (and that's not a generalisation) made this apparent. The bloggers, Watson, Ophelia Benson, Greta Christina -- and the YouTube personality Anita Sarkeesian -- they rarely make this distinction, and they do this very often indeed. Which is quite tiresome when you have to remind them that they're talking about half of the planet's population and they're not a "monolithic structure" (as one succinctly put).
_________________
"Apparently so. But suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day. . . it lands on its edge."
--Amy Hennig, Soul Reaver 2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Vancore



Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Will men ever change?"

Well, if we had a sex drive cycle like that of a woman's maybe we'd be tolerable lol.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Holocauxt



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is brought to you by:

TROLLBAIT



Don't go into the Internet without it.

My two cents for the comic: Men can change, but only gradually. It's not as "instant" as the women characters of Sinfest want it to be. As long as we have "Ego" and "Libido" in our DNA, it will always be a slow process.
_________________
Opinions are like ass holes: everybody has them. Sometimes they're clean... sometimes they stink... and sometimes they're just full of shit. But if you love shoving yours up on other people's faces, then you're a fucking whore.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sammich



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it the underlying behavior or the manifestation of those behaviors you're talking about?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Holocauxt



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Manifestation of Behavior

Example:
Can men stop looking at porn? Yes.

Example:
Can somebody else stop a man from looking at porn? Depending on the circumstance, maybe.

> Underlying Behavior

Example:
Can men stop being attracted to women? Yes, but it may be harder than stopping porn.

Example:
Can somebody else stop a man from being attracted to women? HARDER THAN HARD, but with coercion? Maybe.
_________________
Opinions are like ass holes: everybody has them. Sometimes they're clean... sometimes they stink... and sometimes they're just full of shit. But if you love shoving yours up on other people's faces, then you're a fucking whore.


Last edited by Holocauxt on Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wingcap:

From the experience I have with Shadowcell, that's pretty much what he does; takes something he objects to -- even something trivial -- blow it out of proportion, and then strawmen the hell out of it. In fact, strawmen is his forte. Look through most, if not all, of his posts when addressing other people he disagrees with. They're almost identical in design, and it almost always comes down to the same tired meme: strawmen.

He also an apparent inability to see beyond his bias, as he can't seem to even acknowledge Crayven's very valid points -- as crude and ill-mannered he may be -- nor Motorcycle's. Argument for argument's sake?
_________________
"Apparently so. But suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day. . . it lands on its edge."
--Amy Hennig, Soul Reaver 2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah people don't take my arguments about feminism seriously after i showed them i don't even get the most basic principles of the movement and now they're strawmannnnniiiiing waaaaaaaaaaaah
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 4 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group