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2012-08-13: No Gods No Masters
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5193
Location: No.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iskandar wrote:

whats wrong with getting involved in a late debate?

You don't want to think your religion is sexist, and I'm not going to separate "the rules and fine print" nor even the human aspect or the history of ongoing sexism in the Abrahamic religions from the "actual theology" as you put it.

No progress would be made, neither of us would learn anything new, and the conversation would be generally unfruitful.
I can at least say that for my part unless you have something revolutionary up your sleeve that you didn't pull out in that mini-essay you wrote back there.
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Dawn



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 123
Location: Malaysia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read your long post. I respect you have theological beliefs and we can agree to disagree on those. However, there is one historical fact I believe you are *grossly* wrong about.

"Way back when, women were not as useful as they were now, something forgotten by a lot of feminists decrying the past. "

I'll bite. You obviously don't think females were ANY important back then. So I'll bite.

I could list a hundred million things women did in the past which made them as important as men.

1. Raising and caring for the children while men hunted
2. Foraging for food while men hunted
3. Cured leather or other materials for clothes and warmth while men hunted

"Female skeletons found at Neandertal sites, like those of their male counterparts, have been shown to be robustly built, sometimes featuring healed fractures.

This suggests that the women didn't stay at home but joined the men in the often dangerous practice of hunting large game.

Wesley Niewoehner, an anthropologist at California State University in San Bernardino, has studied Neandertal hand mechanics.

"I've always been impressed by the observation that female Neandertal hand bones indicate that their hands were just as powerful as those of male Neandertals," he said.

"This indicates to me that female Neandertals were doing things with their hands that required significant physical force."

"Whether this fact means that female Neandertals were performing the same tasks as their male counterparts, or they were simply performing different tasks that required the same amount of force, is up for debate," he said. "

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061207-sex-humans.html

_______________________________________

But *obviously* you don't accept the idea of Neandertals, so let's go with more modern hunter gatherer societies.

http://www.huntercourse.com/blog/2011/05/amazing-hunter-gatherer-societies-still-in-existence/

Every ancient society needs both men AND women to run it effectively. While men hunt, women teach the children many many necessary skills and help find additional food, because there wasn't much game that day.

______________________________________________

I would also like to link to this picture and accompanying short story

http://mwwah.com.au/mwwah/well-today-i-didnt-do-it/

A man came home from work and found his 3 children outside, still in their pyjamas, playing in the mud, with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn around garden.

The door of his wife’s car was open, as was the front door to the house and no sign of the dog.

Walking in the door, he found …an even bigger mess.

A lamp had been knocked over, the throw rug was against one wall
In the front room the TV was on loudly with the cartoon channel, the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing.

In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter.
The fridge door was open wide, dog food was spilled on the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door.

He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife.
He was worried she might be ill, or that something serious had happened.

He was met with a small trickle of water as it made its way out the bathroom door.

As he peered inside he found wet towels, scummy soap and more toys strewn over the floor. Miles of toilet paper lay in a heap and toothpaste had been smeared over the mirror and walls.
As he rushed to the bedroom, he found his wife still curled up in the bed in her pyjamas, reading a novel… She looked up at him, smiled and asked how his day went.

He looked at her bewildered and asked, ‘What happened here today?’

She again smiled and answered, ‘You know every day when you come home from work and you ask me what in the world do I do all day?…”Yes,” was his incredulous reply..

She answered, ‘Well, today I didn’t do it.’
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iskandar



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 159
Location: Boston, Massachussets

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
iskandar wrote:

whats wrong with getting involved in a late debate?

You don't want to think your religion is sexist, and I'm not going to separate "the rules and fine print" nor even the human aspect or the history of ongoing sexism in the Abrahamic religions from the "actual theology" as you put it.

No progress would be made, neither of us would learn anything new, and the conversation would be generally unfruitful.
I can at least say that for my part unless you have something revolutionary up your sleeve that you didn't pull out in that mini-essay you wrote back there.


even if it does not lead to a consensus, education helps everyone and argumentation is a form of learning. And as for seperating the theology and human aspects of things, every single freaking idea does this, even feminism. Its the difference in between living on the aristotalian plane of perfect forms and living on the real world.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5193
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iskandar wrote:

even if it does not lead to a consensus, education helps everyone and argumentation is a form of learning.

My time would be better spent learning elsewhere.
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iskandar



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 159
Location: Boston, Massachussets

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawn wrote:
I read your long post. I respect you have theological beliefs and we can agree to disagree on those. However, there is one historical fact I believe you are *grossly* wrong about.

"Way back when, women were not as useful as they were now, something forgotten by a lot of feminists decrying the past. "

I'll bite. You obviously don't think females were ANY important back then. So I'll bite.

I could list a hundred million things women did in the past which made them as important as men.

1. Raising and caring for the children while men hunted
2. Foraging for food while men hunted
3. Cured leather or other materials for clothes and warmth while men hunted

"Female skeletons found at Neandertal sites, like those of their male counterparts, have been shown to be robustly built, sometimes featuring healed fractures.

This suggests that the women didn't stay at home but joined the men in the often dangerous practice of hunting large game.

Wesley Niewoehner, an anthropologist at California State University in San Bernardino, has studied Neandertal hand mechanics.

"I've always been impressed by the observation that female Neandertal hand bones indicate that their hands were just as powerful as those of male Neandertals," he said.

"This indicates to me that female Neandertals were doing things with their hands that required significant physical force."

"Whether this fact means that female Neandertals were performing the same tasks as their male counterparts, or they were simply performing different tasks that required the same amount of force, is up for debate," he said. "

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061207-sex-humans.html

_______________________________________

But *obviously* you don't accept the idea of Neandertals, so let's go with more modern hunter gatherer societies.

http://www.huntercourse.com/blog/2011/05/amazing-hunter-gatherer-societies-still-in-existence/

Every ancient society needs both men AND women to run it effectively. While men hunt, women teach the children many many necessary skills and help find additional food, because there wasn't much game that day.

______________________________________________

I would also like to link to this picture and accompanying short story

http://mwwah.com.au/mwwah/well-today-i-didnt-do-it/

A man came home from work and found his 3 children outside, still in their pyjamas, playing in the mud, with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn around garden.

The door of his wife’s car was open, as was the front door to the house and no sign of the dog.

Walking in the door, he found …an even bigger mess.

A lamp had been knocked over, the throw rug was against one wall
In the front room the TV was on loudly with the cartoon channel, the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing.

In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter.
The fridge door was open wide, dog food was spilled on the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door.

He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife.
He was worried she might be ill, or that something serious had happened.

He was met with a small trickle of water as it made its way out the bathroom door.

As he peered inside he found wet towels, scummy soap and more toys strewn over the floor. Miles of toilet paper lay in a heap and toothpaste had been smeared over the mirror and walls.
As he rushed to the bedroom, he found his wife still curled up in the bed in her pyjamas, reading a novel… She looked up at him, smiled and asked how his day went.

He looked at her bewildered and asked, ‘What happened here today?’

She again smiled and answered, ‘You know every day when you come home from work and you ask me what in the world do I do all day?…”Yes,” was his incredulous reply..

She answered, ‘Well, today I didn’t do it.’


My wording was poor when speaking about usefulness, I was speaking about in the economic making money sense, which I believe I referenced repeatedly only referred to the strength aspect of things. I will not be arguing about neanderthal societies or even hunter gatherer societies because they are so far removed from the times we are talking about. I am primarily speaking about a pre agricultural revolution/urban revolution (around the 1200's AD) raiding/shepherding/farming society wherein physical strength is the primary factor in the creation of capital. I was not saying women were useless, far from it, I was saying that in the economic system of the time, they could not create capital, however they were critical in the support of those who created capital. Believe me, I have been married 31 years and have helped raise 3 kids, I have some inkling as to the sheer work it takes to run a household, one of the reasons why I always did the groceries and cooking as well as helping clean, even though it meant losing an extra hour of sleep each day to fit it all in.
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iskandar



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 159
Location: Boston, Massachussets

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawn wrote:
I read your long post. I respect you have theological beliefs and we can agree to disagree on those. However, there is one historical fact I believe you are *grossly* wrong about.

"Way back when, women were not as useful as they were now, something forgotten by a lot of feminists decrying the past. "

I'll bite. You obviously don't think females were ANY important back then. So I'll bite.

I could list a hundred million things women did in the past which made them as important as men.

1. Raising and caring for the children while men hunted
2. Foraging for food while men hunted
3. Cured leather or other materials for clothes and warmth while men hunted

"Female skeletons found at Neandertal sites, like those of their male counterparts, have been shown to be robustly built, sometimes featuring healed fractures.

This suggests that the women didn't stay at home but joined the men in the often dangerous practice of hunting large game.

Wesley Niewoehner, an anthropologist at California State University in San Bernardino, has studied Neandertal hand mechanics.

"I've always been impressed by the observation that female Neandertal hand bones indicate that their hands were just as powerful as those of male Neandertals," he said.

"This indicates to me that female Neandertals were doing things with their hands that required significant physical force."

"Whether this fact means that female Neandertals were performing the same tasks as their male counterparts, or they were simply performing different tasks that required the same amount of force, is up for debate," he said. "

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061207-sex-humans.html

_______________________________________

But *obviously* you don't accept the idea of Neandertals, so let's go with more modern hunter gatherer societies.

http://www.huntercourse.com/blog/2011/05/amazing-hunter-gatherer-societies-still-in-existence/

Every ancient society needs both men AND women to run it effectively. While men hunt, women teach the children many many necessary skills and help find additional food, because there wasn't much game that day.

______________________________________________

I would also like to link to this picture and accompanying short story

http://mwwah.com.au/mwwah/well-today-i-didnt-do-it/

A man came home from work and found his 3 children outside, still in their pyjamas, playing in the mud, with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn around garden.

The door of his wife’s car was open, as was the front door to the house and no sign of the dog.

Walking in the door, he found …an even bigger mess.

A lamp had been knocked over, the throw rug was against one wall
In the front room the TV was on loudly with the cartoon channel, the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing.

In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter.
The fridge door was open wide, dog food was spilled on the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door.

He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife.
He was worried she might be ill, or that something serious had happened.

He was met with a small trickle of water as it made its way out the bathroom door.

As he peered inside he found wet towels, scummy soap and more toys strewn over the floor. Miles of toilet paper lay in a heap and toothpaste had been smeared over the mirror and walls.
As he rushed to the bedroom, he found his wife still curled up in the bed in her pyjamas, reading a novel… She looked up at him, smiled and asked how his day went.

He looked at her bewildered and asked, ‘What happened here today?’

She again smiled and answered, ‘You know every day when you come home from work and you ask me what in the world do I do all day?…”Yes,” was his incredulous reply..

She answered, ‘Well, today I didn’t do it.’


My wording was poor when speaking about usefulness, I was speaking about in the economic making money sense, which I believe I referenced repeatedly only referred to the strength aspect of things. I will not be arguing about neanderthal societies or even hunter gatherer societies because they are so far removed from the times we are talking about. I am primarily speaking about a pre agricultural revolution/urban revolution (around the 1200's AD) raiding/shepherding/farming society wherein physical strength is the primary factor in the creation of capital. I was not saying women were useless, far from it, I was saying that in the economic system of the time, they could not create capital, however they were critical in the support of those who created capital. Believe me, I have been married 31 years and have helped raise 3 kids, I have some inkling as to the sheer work it takes to run a household, one of the reasons why I always did the groceries and cooking as well as helping clean even though I also was working 10+ hour days.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1151
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Church and all it's glory
Is draining all your money
No Gods, no masters
Religious cancer

It'll teach you nothing
About the world today
Take the belief
And throw it away"
- "Religious Cancer", by Nailbomb

First thing I thought of when I saw the title. Alas, the strip was not a reference to 90's thrash metal. This made me quite sad.

On a semi-serious note... Does being a member of a religion that could be called sexist, automatically make you an accessory to sexism? I mean, you are actively supporting it by choosing to believe in it, and also making donations or volunteering. (Full disclosure: I'm a Lutheran)

Also, wikipedia is the best place to learn everything forever.
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iskandar



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 159
Location: Boston, Massachussets

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
"The Church and all it's glory
Is draining all your money
No Gods, no masters
Religious cancer

It'll teach you nothing
About the world today
Take the belief
And throw it away"
- "Religious Cancer", by Nailbomb

First thing I thought of when I saw the title. Alas, the strip was not a reference to 90's thrash metal. This made me quite sad.

On a semi-serious note... Does being a member of a religion that could be called sexist, automatically make you an accessory to sexism? I mean, you are actively supporting it by choosing to believe in it, and also making donations or volunteering. (Full disclosure: I'm a Lutheran)

Also, wikipedia is the best place to learn everything forever.


As a former lawyer, no you would not be considered an accessory if sexism was a crime. Accessory means actually engaging in sexist acts/knowing that their actions are sexist and assisting them explicitly because they are sexist.. Its like eating at chick fil a, though the company itself (in your case lets call it Heresy inc [note this is sarcasm, I do not actually advocate the burning of lutherans, methodists maybe]) may support anti gay causes, the restaurants themselves (your local church) treat everyone excellently and equally. Eating at chick fil a does not make you an acessosory to anti homsexuality, donating money to anti gay groups does.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1151
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not discussing it as if it's a crime.

I'm saying that you are directly or indirectly supporting it. Hence why people are boycotting Chick A Fil (fuck spelling it we don't have them up here in Canada anyways). Because some people would see buying from them as indirectly supporting homophobics. Sorry if my use of the word "accessory" was making you think of it in a more rigid, law-based way.

Also, my protestant senses are tingling. Are you, by any chance, a Catholic?
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iskandar



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 159
Location: Boston, Massachussets

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
I'm not discussing it as if it's a crime.

I'm saying that you are directly or indirectly supporting it. Hence why people are boycotting Chick A Fil (fuck spelling it we don't have them up here in Canada anyways). Because some people would see buying from them as indirectly supporting homophobics. Sorry if my use of the word "accessory" was making you think of it in a more rigid, law-based way.

Also, my protestant senses are tingling. Are you, by any chance, a Catholic?


By moral code and view of the bible, yeah (historically speaking the old testament has been edited so much that I can't take it literally) but a lot less focused on the ritual side. Sort of in a limbo in between islam and catholocism really, having an Iranian wife helped a bit (the fact that she was really easy going helped me a lot too, remember once in atlanta a baptist missionary came up to us and asked her "is jesus in you" to which she replied "yeah and its the best sex I ever had" what really clinched it was my mock jealousy and asking if she was leaving me for some "omnipotent cabana boy from the levant". Which makes me a heretic in a way too, but its still a lot of fun to mess with protestants especially baptists. The only real time I reference ritual is when using Quebecois cursing, mostly because it flows so well. As for supporting it, you are not supporting it. From my recollections of you people (all you protestants look alike) lutherans tend to be more regional than anything else, no one true papacy to keep the kiddos in line. So if you are donating money, all you are doing is supporting your local church who usually does a lot of good work.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 468
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I should throw my own hat in the ring, or something.

I'm a Christian--specifically, an Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian, heavily seasoned with C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, George MacDonald, a dash of Shinto, all wrapped up in black leather and then baked for 1 hour at 350 degrees...

I see God as masculine toward us, but that gets into a massive array of issues, concepts and clarifications about "masculine and feminine" (metaphysically speaking) vs. "male and female" (biologically speaking) and probably other spectrums. Er, spectra. Er... speculums? (No, probably not speculums. At least, I hope not.) So I am not sure how far iskandar and I would agree on some things, but I'm honestly too tired to wade through the big big big posts tonight. ("Tonight" being 4:35 am here, yikes!)

I'm very, very odd. I think I get along better with a lot of non-Christians much more than many Christians. Given the current political climate in the US right now, I feel compelled to mention that I'm not one of the scary right-wing people (indeed, for me at least, I believe my religious beliefs lead me much more to the left) who seem to dominate a lot of public discourse here right now.

Um, that's all right now. Night all.

David
the weird new guy, please don't throw rocks at me
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not questioning whether my specific brand of religion was supporting sexism - Although I'm sure somewhere, a Lutheran is - , but whether by supporting X religion that could be considered sexist (as one could argue most religions are, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism), could be indirectly supporting sexism itself.

There are some well known cases of sexism in the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran - it is generally agreed upon that they *are* sexist in some passages.

In my mind, it would be indirectly supporting it. However, it probably comes down to how you see your religion (individuals vs. congregations/Synods/etc) and whether you feel that by associating yourself with said religion necessarily means you associate yourself with everything it says.

Also, teehee at being able to guess you were Catholic.

E: As for being able to talk to non-Christians better than Christians (as per ChastMastr), I'd say I'm never very compelled to tell people I'm a Christian in the first place. It's a personal thing that just doesn't tend to come up in conversation usually. And the people that do bring it up, unfortunately, tend to be evangelists or fundamentalists.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1943
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
"The Church and all it's glory
Is draining all your money
No Gods, no masters
Religious cancer

It'll teach you nothing
About the world today
Take the belief
And throw it away"
- "Religious Cancer", by Nailbomb

First thing I thought of when I saw the title. Alas, the strip was not a reference to 90's thrash metal. This made me quite sad.
Looks like I have another band to research.
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Halen



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1883
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I would also like to link to this picture and accompanying short story

http://mwwah.com.au/mwwah/well-today-i-didnt-do-it/

A man came home from work and found his 3 children outside, still in their pyjamas, playing in the mud, with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn around garden.

The door of his wife’s car was open, as was the front door to the house and no sign of the dog.

Walking in the door, he found …an even bigger mess.

A lamp had been knocked over, the throw rug was against one wall
In the front room the TV was on loudly with the cartoon channel, the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing.

In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter.
The fridge door was open wide, dog food was spilled on the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door.

He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife.
He was worried she might be ill, or that something serious had happened.

He was met with a small trickle of water as it made its way out the bathroom door.

As he peered inside he found wet towels, scummy soap and more toys strewn over the floor. Miles of toilet paper lay in a heap and toothpaste had been smeared over the mirror and walls.
As he rushed to the bedroom, he found his wife still curled up in the bed in her pyjamas, reading a novel… She looked up at him, smiled and asked how his day went.

He looked at her bewildered and asked, ‘What happened here today?’

She again smiled and answered, ‘You know every day when you come home from work and you ask me what in the world do I do all day?…”Yes,” was his incredulous reply..

She answered, ‘Well, today I didn’t do it


See, I really liked your post until you came up with this absolutely twatty bullshit.
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Catel



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 346
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No gods no masters in the reality. Just the reality of the system.
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