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2012 U.S. Presidential Debates
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Ember778 wrote:
Before computers were invented we didn't have children failing out all over the place.




High School Graduation Rates over Time


Just because graduation rates have improved doesn't mean that the causation is computers.


I never said that. You said kids weren't 'failing out all over the place' before computers. Clearly that's just not true.

Quote:
Standards have gone down quite a bit.


Hmm... I would need to see conclusive evidence to support the assertion that 'standards have gone down quite a bit,' but I showed earlier in this thread that SAT scores certainly haven't risen appreciably over time.

Quote:
You'll also note that there is no significant jump in the data as a variable change would denote.


Again, you're refuting an assertion I did not make.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:

I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.


i'm glad you've pointed out that all this fuss about the unemployment rate being over 8% is pointless. clearly, we don't have high levels of unemployment because there aren't enough jobs - it's because people just don't work hard enough to find them!

and fuck all those people whose jobs got shipped to china. if they _really_ want to work, they could easily swim over there.
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Ember778



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Ember778 wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Ember778 wrote:
Before computers were invented we didn't have children failing out all over the place.




High School Graduation Rates over Time


Just because graduation rates have improved doesn't mean that the causation is computers.


I never said that. You said kids weren't 'failing out all over the place' before computers. Clearly that's just not true.

Quote:
Standards have gone down quite a bit.


Hmm... I would need to see conclusive evidence to support the assertion that 'standards have gone down quite a bit,' but I showed earlier in this thread that SAT scores certainly haven't risen appreciably over time.

Quote:
You'll also note that there is no significant jump in the data as a variable change would denote.


Again, you're refuting an assertion I did not make.


Then you're arguing details instead of concepts. You understood what I was saying yet you held me on a stupid detail.

This just makes you look like a smartass.
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Ember778



Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Ember778 wrote:

I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.


i'm glad you've pointed out that all this fuss about the unemployment rate being over 8% is pointless. clearly, we don't have high levels of unemployment because there aren't enough jobs - it's because people just don't work hard enough to find them!

and fuck all those people whose jobs got shipped to china. if they _really_ want to work, they could easily swim over there.


There are enough jobs to obtain one in less than two years. My sister graduated recently and she found one within a month.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
Then you're arguing details instead of concepts. You understood what I was saying yet you held me on a stupid detail.

This just makes you look like a smartass.


No, no, and no. You said something I showed to be untrue, accused me of making an argument I didn't make, and followed that up with an assertion that is as yet unsubstantiated.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Also, because people like anecdotal evidence, I was born poor. The reason I'm not poor now is because I was supported by a variety of social systems that enabled me to overcome barriers. I lived for several years in Canada, and having universal health care helped me stay healthy as I bounced from job to job before going back to school. I was able to attend college for essentially free (ended with $4,500 in debt), because my state is relatively generous when it comes to education spending. Had those resources not been available, I couldn't have afforded to get my education.

I feel strongly about giving back now because I know I didn't succeed on my own. No one does. I succeeded because I had a great family, dedicated teachers who pushed me, counselors who helped me find scholarships, administrators who rearranged budgets, and professors who fostered my potential. I'm able to whip your ass on issues of social policy now because the educational community in my state is phenomenally devoted to students. Yes, I worked hard, and it paid off, but my social mobility didn't spring from that. It came from a web of personal, professional, and social factors that combined to create opportunities, which only then was I able to work hard to achieve.


I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.


Or there might be no jobs, like when you're in a recession.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
mouse wrote:
Ember778 wrote:

I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.


i'm glad you've pointed out that all this fuss about the unemployment rate being over 8% is pointless. clearly, we don't have high levels of unemployment because there aren't enough jobs - it's because people just don't work hard enough to find them!

and fuck all those people whose jobs got shipped to china. if they _really_ want to work, they could easily swim over there.


There are enough jobs to obtain one in less than two years. My sister graduated recently and she found one within a month.


Wow you're stupid, ignorant, selfish, and unempathetic . A recent grad doesn't have the same kind of responsibilities or commitments. What about people who've been working 5, 10, 15, 25, 30 years etc., had significantly higher than entry level incomes, and suddenly were without jobs. If you were making say $70,000 at age 40ish-50ish, you're going to have a hard time finding a new job. that's going to pay you equivalently. My wife's one friend worked as an assistant manager at KFC, making about $46,000 a year after working there for 6 years, then their owner sold off the location to someone who owned 12 other locations, and he terminated her and replaced her with someone who was making only $34,000 a year.

Also think of this: You're working a job where you make X number of dollars, you get terminated/fired/laid off/etc. and collect 80% of X as unemployment. If the only jobs available pay significantly than 80% of X (say 60% or even 50% of X) what motivation is there to NOT be on unemployment?
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
mouse wrote:
Ember778 wrote:

I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.


i'm glad you've pointed out that all this fuss about the unemployment rate being over 8% is pointless. clearly, we don't have high levels of unemployment because there aren't enough jobs - it's because people just don't work hard enough to find them!

and fuck all those people whose jobs got shipped to china. if they _really_ want to work, they could easily swim over there.


There are enough jobs to obtain one in less than two years. My sister graduated recently and she found one within a month.


And of course that anecdotal evidence is better than any actual data.

I think I've found another topic on which you clearly don't understand anything.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
There are enough jobs to obtain one in less than two years. My sister graduated recently and she found one within a month.


so: your sister has a college degree. current unemployment among those with a bachelor's degree is 4.9% (and even lower for people with higher degrees). but for people with only a high school diploma, the unemployment rate is 9.4% (and yes, the numbers on this page are for 2011, one point in time, yadda yadda yadda - but the trend by education has been pretty much the same).

now, i know you are going to say that if those people with only a HS diploma were _really_ willing to work, they would have a college degree. this of course will mean you read nothing at all of what dogen wrote, which is pretty much what i expect. short version: you have your head up your ass on that.

back 20-30 years ago, a person could make a decent living with only a high school degree. those were all the blue-collar jobs - steelworkers, auto workers, all kinds of manufacturing jobs. those are the jobs that have gone to china. they no longer exist in the u.s. - no matter how hard these guys look for jobs.

this is a graph of the # of jobs in the U.S. over time:


notice that it sorta flattens out around 2000. despite all those tax breaks to the job creators....they didn't create jobs. but the population keeps growing. so you get a gap between the number of people who want jobs, and the number who can have them. and that gap is bigger depending not on how hard you work, but what your skills are, and whether those skills are in demand.

and if you are a blue-collar worker, your skills are less and less in demand, at least here in the u.s. and while it certainly is an options for a 50 year old man to go back to college and earn a degree in, say, engineering, so he can go out and get a different job, he may or not have the money to do that. and when he gets out, and is looking for an engineering job as a 54-yr-old, rather than a 20-something....well, his desirability to an employer may not be quite as high as it should be.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
this is a graph of the # of jobs in the U.S. over time:

Hmm. . . something interesting is going on when Bush and Bush Sr. were in office, I wonder. . .
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ember778 wrote:
I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.

No, the part I was disagreeing with was (obviously) when you said, "If they really wanted to get out of poverty then they would try harder." Which I showed to be a bullshit statement, both in its reflection on whether the poor work hard and whether working hard alone guarantees anyone a path out of poverty. You said it, own it.

Quote:
I don't disagree with government aid programs, however when I see people using food stamp money on cigarettes it makes me a bit angry.

Talk to your legislature, or move to a more progressive state. In WA you can't buy cigarettes or alcohol with food stamps. Very Happy

Quote:
After leaving my parents household to go to college (for which I didn't pay for because I had a full scholarship) I didn't have any benefits that would come from a life of wealth. I had exactly the same amount of money as everyone else. That's diddly squat.

I made it through college with minimal debt and graduated with a degree was actually useful. I got hired and got paid. I then invested that money in a 401k and saved money which I put into dividend stocks which have been giving me compound interest for quite some time now.

So, is the point of this soliloquy that if you can do it anyone can? Because, again, I've shown that there are lot of factors that influence how easy or difficult it is for people to succeed. There are reasons social mobility is so restricted in the US - and it's not because no one realizes they can get scholarships for school.

Quote:
There aren't too many significantly malnourished children. And blaming lack of funding is bullshit. Before computers were invented we didn't have children failing out all over the place.

This went from uninformed to "what the fuck are you talking about?" in three sentences. It's like your brain is a 4x4, and only goes off road. Aside from the fact that there are millions of children facing hunger in the US, what about all the other barriers? What about neighborhood violence? What about lack of health insurance? What about parenting styles and the effects on psychosocial development? What about non-academic responsibilities, like having a job to help pay the bills, or taking care of younger siblings while parents work?
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Ember778



Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
mouse wrote:
this is a graph of the # of jobs in the U.S. over time:

Hmm. . . something interesting is going on when Bush and Bush Sr. were in office, I wonder. . .


I know right? It sorta looks like after the collapse in 2000 things start to pick up again. Even though people say Bush jr. was like the worst president in history.

Who knew.

Something interesting seems to be happening when Obama was elected though.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean the financial collapse that happened at the end of Bush's presidency? The one that spurred the original TARP - which was championed by Bush before being supported by Obama?

So... you're a historical revisionist, too?
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Ember778



Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Ember778 wrote:
I never said anything about getting rid of programs that help people who need help I merely said being on unemployment for two years is bullshit. If it takes you two whole years to find a job then you aren't searching hard enough or you aren't putting in sufficient effort in things like cover letters and your resume and such.

No, the part I was disagreeing with was (obviously) when you said, "If they really wanted to get out of poverty then they would try harder." Which I showed to be a bullshit statement, both in its reflection on whether the poor work hard and whether working hard alone guarantees anyone a path out of poverty. You said it, own it.

Quote:
I don't disagree with government aid programs, however when I see people using food stamp money on cigarettes it makes me a bit angry.

Talk to your legislature, or move to a more progressive state. In WA you can't buy cigarettes or alcohol with food stamps. Very Happy

Quote:
After leaving my parents household to go to college (for which I didn't pay for because I had a full scholarship) I didn't have any benefits that would come from a life of wealth. I had exactly the same amount of money as everyone else. That's diddly squat.

I made it through college with minimal debt and graduated with a degree was actually useful. I got hired and got paid. I then invested that money in a 401k and saved money which I put into dividend stocks which have been giving me compound interest for quite some time now.

So, is the point of this soliloquy that if you can do it anyone can? Because, again, I've shown that there are lot of factors that influence how easy or difficult it is for people to succeed. There are reasons social mobility is so restricted in the US - and it's not because no one realizes they can get scholarships for school.

Quote:
There aren't too many significantly malnourished children. And blaming lack of funding is bullshit. Before computers were invented we didn't have children failing out all over the place.

This went from uninformed to "what the fuck are you talking about?" in three sentences. It's like your brain is a 4x4, and only goes off road. Aside from the fact that there are millions of children facing hunger in the US, what about all the other barriers? What about neighborhood violence? What about lack of health insurance? What about parenting styles and the effects on psychosocial development? What about non-academic responsibilities, like having a job to help pay the bills, or taking care of younger siblings while parents work?


I laugh at your barriers. I have never used my health insurance except for when I was required to get physicals to try out for sports, and I had a job in high school. Colleges eat up that crap.

You're never going to be able to solve parenting styles and if neighborhood violence stops one from getting an education then the child is stupid anyway.

I'm done here. There's only so much I really care to take. You can claim your little victory if you want.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess this ends now.
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