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Pope quotes 14th Century Christian Emperor, hilarity ensues
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not just that they did not mean to offend, but that it is flat-out ludicrous to attach any blame for the "offending" to them. No one, reading the speech, could honestly consider this an attack on Islam.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:18 am    Post subject: it involves the subtle silent hypocrisies being played out Reply with quote

But, they are.

Nevermind that the pope was stressing that he was simply quoting an Islamophobe from the fourteenth century just to make an overarching point ('violence is bad'): we have to keep in mind that this riotious contingent is the same bunch of sanctimonious, thin-skinned sissies that flipped out over Dutch cartoons depicting Mohammed, and burned buildings and threatened assassination of heathen artists.

Here, we have the pope speaking words that condemn Islam in such a way that allows them to miss the point and get all sauced at the Vatican and riot some more.

By the by, the humor of my introductory post does not involve anything that I think that the Catholic church is actually saying.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure that "they" are. Baselessly judgemental though it sounds, I strongly suspect that any outrage at the top is feigned, an excuse to whip their followers (who have not read the speech) into a frenzy.

I have to take partial issue with your calling Manuel II a Islamophobe, though. The quotation is from writings during a siege of Constantinople by the Ottomans. Not exactly going to be a solid representation of his general feelings.

And I don't think your joke meant you really thought the Pope was being dishonest, but it did sound like you were chiming in with calling him disingenous.
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AfyonBlade



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the Pope was fully in the wrong, but he (or his speech writers, do they have those?) weren't very careful in how they progressed. If you quote someone that is blatantly against the methods of a religion, you need to account that, since you are quoting him and then not going "I feel this is wrong", you partially believe him, or at least don't find him completely in the wrong.
People are pretty sensitive. If you start quoting someone who was against their religion, they're not going to enjoy it. The Pope's 'apology' was subpar, too.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: farklempt Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not sure that "they" are.


The people protesting the speech. And there's a lot of complete contempt for the speech in the Islamic world.
Quote:
I have to take partial issue with your calling Manuel II a Islamophobe, though. The quotation is from writings during a siege of Constantinople by the Ottomans. Not exactly going to be a solid representation of his general feelings.


The quote expressed an absolute disdain for the Islamic faith. I know that calling someone a 'phobe is usually entirely pejorative, but here it's being used in a descriptive manner.
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kame



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boy howdy what? certain muslims (just like certain christians, or certain hebrews) are far too sensitive about their religion?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. And they found out how to rile them.

Although, this isn't just 'certain muslims,' -- sadly --

it's a bit widespread. Also high-level. It's accomodated condemnation by muslim authority most everywhere. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan (a favorite subject of mine) is already flipping out about it in front of cameras, amid the Turkish government's comparisons of Benedict to Hitler.

Morocco recalled their ambassador to the Vatican.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
... amid the Turkish government's comparisons of Benedict to Hitler.

But remember, the Holocaust didn't happen. Nossiree Bobmohammed. Those Zionists are just lying so they can steal The Holy Land.
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Teh Digital Dragon



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Sam wrote:
... amid the Turkish government's comparisons of Benedict to Hitler.

But remember, the Holocaust didn't happen. Nossiree Bobmohammed. Those Zionists are just lying so they can steal The Holy Land.

Whose belief is that meant to be? Turkey's? Islam's in general? Because, while I've heard the holocaust-denial shit in the news about Iran I've personally never met a muslim who was anti-semitic, and as I understand it Turkey doesn't hold Holocaust denial as official foreign policy.

As to the issue under discussion, I don't think it's an either or thing. Those protesting over this are over-sensitive, and pope benedict was incredibly insensitive to the current climate to think he could use such an islamaphobic quotation without offending people, regardless of it's context. Essentially, everyone involved is a moron.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
Whose belief is that meant to be? Turkey's? Islam's in general? Because, while I've heard the holocaust-denial shit in the news about Iran I've personally never met a muslim who was anti-semitic, and as I understand it Turkey doesn't hold Holocaust denial as official foreign policy.

First of all, it would be completely stupid and out of line for me to accuse Islam in general of Holocaust denial. Secondly, Turkey's official policy is not one of denial, however like many Middle Eastern countries there is a growing movement by Holocaust Deniers to popularize their filth in the country, including by Turkish Creationists, one of whom wrote a very popular denialist book. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is "mostly seen as an authentic document" there, as it is in much of the Middle East unfortunately, and along with The International Jew are national bestsellers due in part to the efforts of anti-semitic/anti-Israeli, nationalist, and Islamist groups (finally found out the precise meaning of that word). Despite the growing popularity of the idea, though, Turkey at least has set up a Holocaust Memorial Day. So maybe you see me as off-base, I just thought the Hitler comparison was a particularly ironic one in one of the countries plagued by fundamentalist-motivated antisemitism. Last I heard Turkey was still under the antisecular, Islamist AKP party majority, which also has tinges of antisemitism. Ever since the AKP rose to power, it seems the near monopolous media organizations (most of which have a strong Nationalist bent) have also been progressing in a more antisemitic direction with wild accusations of Jews being responsible for the downfall of the Ottoman empire, and even the Armenian "genocide."
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:06 am    Post subject: DIE, STRAW POPE! Reply with quote

Corollary:

Erdoğan, by the way, is the head of state thereabouts, and he's grappling with a massive kurd problem that has led him into significant histrionics in order to placate the military and keep his seat safe. The place has such a wonderfully bupkis madness to it!

And oh god they're burning the pope in effigy now.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
The people protesting the speech. And there's a lot of complete contempt for the speech in the Islamic world.

I was saying that the vast, vast majority of those protesting the speech have not actually heard or read it, and do not understand how ridiculous their protest is.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Sam wrote:
The people protesting the speech. And there's a lot of complete contempt for the speech in the Islamic world.

I was saying that the vast, vast majority of those protesting the speech have not actually heard or read it, and do not understand how ridiculous their protest is.

This from the ogre with a penis for a nose.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
This from the ogre with a penis for a nose.

A large nose is the mark of a witty, courteous, affable, generous and liberal man.

I notice you seem to be a bit... proboscially challenged.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does the lack of any definable body mean?
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