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Oct. 13: Return of the God Hand!
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh, I forget that believing in an all powerful creator that holds us to a standard is usually looked down upon as superstitious drudge.

I want to at least say that I believe in science, evolution (as adaption to better live in a new area though, not origin of the species) and other aspects that people usually cite as why they do not believe God exists. I look at those examples and believe my God created everything, so he specifically created science and all the other things in his design. That may seem like a cop out but it is my belief.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please don't bring up any of that crap, Rothide.

I'm not in the mood.

Dogen wrote:
There are different types of IQ tests. Some test for fluid intelligence, which doesn't appear related to education directly (though there may be some interaction). Crystalized intelligence, like the type of IQ test we use in the US, is affected by education (it tests vocabulary, math, etc). The first link describes the difficulty of pinpointing what's causing the intergenerational increases. A dude named Flynn has been studying it for 30 years and still can't explain it.

EDIT: But, depending on how far back the gains go, it's possible Biblical writers would have been mentally retarded on today's IQ tests.


Yeah, these aren't easy questions to answer.

I'd take the tests again just to see whether my hypothesis that my scores have dropped relative to the general population is accurate or not, but I'm just a single data point, plus I may have misjudged the circumstances, so whatever the results might be it wouldn't really tell me much.
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crap over, just stating my belief. If someone doesn't know where a person is coming from, they cant really understand the person at all.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, yes, that's true, and also reasonable people who try to hold on to such beliefs generally try to incorporate scientific findings into them, like you have, I am well aware. That much doesn't bother me.

I'm not even going to tell you what specific part of what you said made me want to fling proverbial poo at you, though, because I don't want to get into an argument about it.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:

But what about changes in IQ? People all over the world are testing higher and higher... they actually have to frequently recalibrate IQ tests to new norms in order to keep the curve from moving.

I have no idea why this is (although Ulric Neisser edited a book about it, and everyone should read everything he ever wrote), I'm just tossing it out there.

I've heard this, before. One interesting theory I've heard offered in response to this observation is that the apparent increase in intelligence over time actually is tied to increases in technology and, more specifically, to improvements in communication. It seems that it's not necessarily widespread education that makes a civilization "smarter," so much as it's the ability to record and share ideas--even mistaken ideas--that does the trick.

edit: Although, that's kind of a chicken-and-egg observation, really. Do we get smarter by sharing ideas? Or, are we better able to share ideas because we're getting smarter? My bet is the two phenomena are too intertwined to be able to separate.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a lot of theories. Better nutrition, focus on academics making us better test takers, etc. It might even be little bits from all of those things working together!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:

As far as the actual point I had been addressing goes, it doesn't take very much intelligence to notice that a particular food is making people sick, and of course the Bible says nothing about that, or why it might have been making people sick, it just says, "Nu. Don't eat pork. Pigs are UNCLEAAAAN WITH THEIR CLOVEN HOOVES 'N SHIT OOOO SCARY CLOVEN HOOVES AND ALSO A HOOVEN ANIMAL THAT DOESN'T CHEW CUD AAAGH NUUUU."


i strongly suspect that it was actually more about watching what the animals eat. cows eat grass, sheep eat grass, goats eat grass, pigs eat...oh, ick. so you come up with a simple rule that keeps you from eating the icky stuff, and also your transportation (like horses).
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Oneponytoruleall



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goats are browsers (eat a bit here and there and move on like deer) not grazers. They nibble on just about everything. They have just as much of a reputation for being garbage eaters as hogs. But they can survive where other hooved animals can't find enough to eat.

Hogs eat a lot of roots and plants, but the unclean thing probably comes from the fact they'll eat anything they can dig up including human corpses. Like dogs. The dog is regarded as an unclean beast and a scavenger in the the bible.

Of course, fish are also known for eating on corpses and they're still a preferred biblical food.

And Jesus said, "I'll cure you of leprosy and blindness, but you're on your own with those internal parasites. Those things are gross. I can't handle that shit."
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, really more bottom feeders, like crustaceans, eat on corpses and stuff. the ones the fishermen went for were probably feeding in the water column.
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TheJabawack



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I attended catechesis one of the first thing that got explained was that the Bible is not like the Koran wich was dictated by Allah to Mohamed.

The Bible was written by people influenced by God to write in their own words what God intended. It was a product of the times in wich it was written.

The fact that pigs were unclean was probably just a way to stop the community from getting sick after eating pork.

Otherwise the reason why other animals weren't considered unclean doesn't make sense to me either.
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LadySunami



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it had nothing to do with any of those things. At least not really. The Jewish people just had a very strict view of how the word ought to be.

They believed that in the beginning God made order out of Chaos, but Chaos continues to "leak" into God's creation, causing deviations from his ordered or "proper" creation. Things that are "unclean" are manifestations of Chaos, and as such should be avoided. That's why Leviticus lists what traits/behavior are "proper" for various creatures to have, and only prohibits eating and touching those creatures that don't have those traits.

So proper land animals are the ones that have split hooves and chew cud. Any animals that do not, should be avoided. Similarly proper sea creatures have fins and scales, and winged insects ought to hop on the ground, not walk on all fours.

Of course I should add that I learned all this in an upper division theology class about two years ago, so my memory might be a little off. Still, my Professor, Charles A. Bobertz, was brilliant. He really knows his stuff.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I know about it is what Leviticus says.

Leviticus wrote:
You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
BUT CHECK IT, BITCH --Pigs have cloven hooves yet don't chew cud, SO THEY ARE UNCLEAN.


Also "unclean" are rabbit and hyrax.
but uhhh
I'm not seeing what the problem with rabbit is.
I mean, it wouldn't be good to eat nothing but rabbit, but...
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
winged insects ought to hop on the ground, not walk on all fours.

Of course I should add that I learned all this in an upper division theology class about two years ago, so my memory might be a little off.


one hopes so - either that, or insects have changed quite a bit since biblical times.
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TheJabawack



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how it got decided wich traits were "unclean", were they listed by God himself or was it a decision made referring to/expanding on previous precepts?

As for insects, should it be walk on all sixs? Or maybe walk on all as many as they want? (go millipedes!) Razz
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
LadySunami wrote:
winged insects ought to hop on the ground, not walk on all fours.

Of course I should add that I learned all this in an upper division theology class about two years ago, so my memory might be a little off.


one hopes so - either that, or insects have changed quite a bit since biblical times.


"You can't eat insects that walk on all fours unless they jump around like grasshoppers or locusts or whatever. Them's tasty. BUT ALL OTHER INSECTS THAT WALK ON FOUR LEGS ARE UNCLEAN. UNCLEeEEEeeeEEAAAAAAAAN.
IF YOU EVEN TOUCH ONE YOU'LL BE UNCLEAN TOO. AND GOD IS NOT UNCLEAN AND YOU WANT TO BE LIKE GOD.
I suppose you'll get better shortly. BUT THEM DAMNEDED GROUND-CRAWLIES WON'T. THEY'LL ALWAYS BE UNCLEAN."
--Leviticus, bro.
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