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Oct. 13: Return of the God Hand!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, i don't know that you want to be multiplying cats with dogs...it's just wrong on so many levels.

plus afterwards, the place is a wreck.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the solution to pretty much every math problem you'll ever encounter
Wink
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that's why smartphones are banned in classrooms. =P

Dogen wrote:
You probably have a type of memory that you excel at that you don't notice because no one asks you to use it the way we ask people to use numbers. If I had to venture a guess, as an artist I would imagine you probably have a fairly good memory for visual and spatial information. They test this in people by having them walk into a room they've never seen, look around for a set amount of time (15 seconds, 30 seconds, etc), then come out. They give them a blank map of the space and have them draw all the items they can remember into the space in the correct locations. Sometimes they even do it in 3D, to see if you can remember relative heights. Artists are usually good at it. Regular people tend to move things into quadrants (you know, top left, top right, etc) or follow rules, like something near the center of the room gets moved to the center, things get lined up more, etc.

Yeah. Sounds about right. I was pretty much the best one in every class (bragging too it seems, sorry) at that particular exercise of briefly seeing something and recreating it. Especially when we did the approach where we had to go, look at someone for 15 seconds and go back and draw them. There were variants where you could go back too, and my teacher said he had one teacher himself that had made them ONLY work like that for an entire semester. He said, "You either got good at it or you got in great shape from running back and forth". (They spaced it by about 50 yards or so)

I always liked that kind of challenge though. In High School, I spent most of my time in class either sketching on a comic I had been doing for fun...or my other favorite thing, sketching people moving around. The big thing was I'd sketch my teacher down from an angle, then while they moved about, I'd think of them in 3D terms and place them on the page, even though they weren't holding a pose. I remember I was so surprised people couldn't do that in college. Like some couldn't do it looking at someone directly. I always got kind of embarrassed, because my teacher would come up, and she would go on EVERY time about how good my foreshortening was. My wife can attest too...She did it EVERY day. (Yeah, my wife was in there...Yup. She's an artist too. Go figure. Seriously, somehow she does logic and math better than most of her class of soon to be Doctors AND she's artistic. I think I'm out-shined in this marriage. xD )
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be so much better if they taught kids how to use computers for math rather than teaching them how to use those stupid little graphing calculators.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on your needs, but generally I agree that computers are more useful.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, no, it's like those calculators are specifically designed to not be useful. Absolutely nobody* uses them other than students.


*there's probably some idiot somewhere who proves to be an exception to this rule
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, and they cost like $130 but do less than a $4 app on my iphone, with a terrible screen.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you're paying for the actual physical buttons that click when you press them

and the sleek plastic casing

and the privilege to use a computational device on exams
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:


This doesn't make any sense. First, as HR points out, who cares about phone numbers? People point this out to me all the time, like if we don't know phone numbers we should all be wearing helmets.


I definitely didn't mean to infer that people are stupid if they don't remember a bunch of phone numbers and apologize if it seemed I was making that point. What I meant to convey is that our society, on a whole, has seemed to move away from memorizing and instead relies more on storing information briefly and then letting it go. It is a different mind process, but I think the most healthy mind is one that can do all these things. It is definitely not necessary to remember all those phone numbers in your phone, but I would envy anyone who could.


Dogen wrote:
Why would you learn something you don't need to know, and which does nothing to enrich your life or that of anyone else? Are you unable to learn phone numbers, or do you have no reason to learn phone numbers? I'm betting it's the latter.


You are absolutely right on the latter. However, the more schooling I do (I am going to school for engineering, or psychology; one of them, I am having a wonderful time trying to decide) the more I find it easier to remember things.

What I mean by "Disciplined Learning" is getting the point where it is pounded into your skull until you never forget it. Most students seem to store information long enough to get by on a test and have trouble remembering what they learned later. I remember in one of my math classes our teacher talked about a great mathematician who had a jerk of a teacher who forced his students to add up numbers in a Fibonacci (Sorry if I butchered the spelling) sequence to 100. It was fairly common place in those days to practice something over and over again. That was when that mathematician came up with a formula to easily add up the sequence. Students would do it over and over. Instead of focusing on one thing and making sure we know it really well, we focus on MANY things and not do them as well. At least, that is how I see it.

So, the end result is parents who eventually can't help their children out with homework because they can't even remember how they did it.

Those are only musings though. I play the piano, so I always feel that muscle memory is the best way to go. Likewise, I can't tell someone a formula until I have a pencil and can write it down. In fact, if I write my notes with my hands I remember most of it. It's so crazy and amazing how the brain works.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
What I meant to convey is that our society, on a whole, has seemed to move away from memorizing and instead relies more on storing information briefly and then letting it go. It is a different mind process, but I think the most healthy mind is one that can do all these things.

I guess I just don't see it. Everyone has tons of information that they can recall on cue, so they are doing it, you just seem to be ignoring all types of learning that aren't within a narrow range. What I see - and this may simply be a difference of perspective - is that rather than storing less information we're storing different kinds. The brain is like a muscle, and it gets better at storing and retrieving information the more often it does it. But our entire academic system is focused on getting kids to ingest and regurgitate information, so it's not like we're not practiced. And technically, if you can recall something more than 24-36 hours after you learned it then it's in your long-term memory probably forever (no one really knows), it's just a question of whether you've encoded appropriate retrieval cues for accessing it later. But that's not a problem in the sense of getting dumber, that's more akin to a clerical error - easily fixed by doing things like cumulative final exams or repeated testing on the same material (as my advisor used to say, over and over, "repetition breeds recall").

As a side note, one thing you'll learn if you take more psychology courses is that there are a lot of different types of intelligence. We've already talked about fluid and crystallized intelligence in this thread, but we also look at things like concrete versus abstract reasoning, verbal versus non-verbal reasoning, spatial reasoning, and a variety of others. Sometimes they overlap (verbal reasoning can be concrete or abstract, for instance), but different people perform differently across the array. Be careful that you're not defining intelligence so narrowly that you exclude certain skills in favor of others. A world filled with brilliant mathematicians but no writers or philosophers would be hell, or at least boring.

Quote:
You are absolutely right on the latter. However, the more schooling I do (I am going to school for engineering, or psychology; one of them, I am having a wonderful time trying to decide) the more I find it easier to remember things.

So the more you use your brain, the easier it is to learn... sounds like it's working just fine to me! Wink

Quote:
What I mean by "Disciplined Learning" is getting the point where it is pounded into your skull until you never forget it. Most students seem to store information long enough to get by on a test and have trouble remembering what they learned later. [...] Instead of focusing on one thing and making sure we know it really well, we focus on MANY things and not do them as well. At least, that is how I see it.

So, the end result is parents who eventually can't help their children out with homework because they can't even remember how they did it.

Was it ever any different? I mean, you learned about a guy in your math class... but how many people during his era could do higher level math at all? The reason you learned about him was probably because he was above average - enough for anyone to bother remembering him. What percentage of 15-year-olds 100 years ago could do any algebra at all? Are we really different, or do we just feel different? We lose sight of the fact that the majority of people are always going to be mediocre at best - that just makes sense, right? The reason it's called "mediocre" is because it falls around the median, and that's where the majority of people live. So most people will never find calculus easy, or be elegant writers, or amazing logicians. They'll be C and B students.

Quote:
Those are only musings though. I play the piano, so I always feel that muscle memory is the best way to go. Likewise, I can't tell someone a formula until I have a pencil and can write it down. In fact, if I write my notes with my hands I remember most of it. It's so crazy and amazing how the brain works.

Yeah, writing during a lecture invokes multimodal learning. Technically, the jury is still out on whether it actually improves performance but people definitely prefer it (that is, students say they learn better using multiple modalities [seeing and moving, hearing and reading, etc.], but test scores don't always correlate).
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