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I hope this thread kills itself (a disscussion on suicide)
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for that comic. it illustrates very succinctly what I sometimes have trouble articulating.

I hear what you're saying and perhaps 'selfish' isn't the best word but rather concern about the ramifications of your suicide on your loved ones. you can be in utter despair or debilitated with agonizing pain with the desire to kill yourself filling your every thought and still be concerned about the devastation it will bring to your family. and while it probably isn't healthy, when it's debilitating pain that leads to the desire for suicide and concern about the effect it will have on loved ones is all that has been stopping you, then the two issues seem very much related.

I'll try to address this better and explain everything a little more when I'm feeling more up to it.

I sorry to hear about your father, that must have been a difficult experience for you and your family.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: I hope this thread kills itself (a disscussion on suicid Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
As this comix points out, people who think about suicide suffers from a different kind of issues, and would be happier than anyone else to trade selfishness against sadness. To me, these issues are different; the chronical pain/debilitation one and the suicide vs selfishness one and I for one don't think it's healthy to mix the two.

Well this comic is hitting uncomfortably close to home. Welp.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, this is going to sound a bit evil of me...but I almost think that thoughts of suicide are like a passage of life. I think that in every person's life there is a moment where they wonder "Who would miss me when I am gone? How would people react? What is after this? Should I find out?"

I really believe that everyone in this mortal world thinks, even for the briefest of moments, on committing suicide. I think it's human nature. It's different though when you are depressed vs. sick and expected to die. In that case your death is sure as well as your pain. What would you be able to do with your remaining time? Is it worth living? I suppose when you want to commit suicide because of depression you just ask yourself if it will get better.

But yes, I view it as a passage of life. If you decide not, you are strong enough to stay alive longer. If not, you get to see if there is a next step sooner than everyone else.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you obviously are clueless as to what is actually being discussed. I'm not going to be nice because you're ignorance is quite loathsome.

When a person is seriously "contemplating suicide", we aren't just talking about a cursory existential wandering thought. What we are discussing is when you reach a state of mind where you are regularly, constantly thinking about killing yourself. Where every train of thought converges down the same dark track. If you want to know, ask a question, but don't try to act like you have any clue even remotely about what is being discussed when it's plain as day that you're absolutely clueless.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Then you obviously are clueless as to what is actually being discussed. I'm not going to be nice because you're ignorance is quite loathsome.

When a person is seriously "contemplating suicide", we aren't just talking about a cursory existential wandering thought. What we are discussing is when you reach a state of mind where you are regularly, constantly thinking about killing yourself. Where every train of thought converges down the same dark track. If you want to know, ask a question, but don't try to act like you have any clue even remotely about what is being discussed when it's plain as day that you're absolutely clueless.


But that is exactly what I am talking about. Some people get past it faster than others, some people deal with it throughout all their lives. Of course I had my moments of depression. Of course I had my long stint back in adolescence where I thought that everything would be better if I was dead.

I think people who ponder suicide tend to think that their situation is uncommon and therefore special, but it is not. Life sucks for everyone at any point and time. It all comes down to a choice: do you want to live or not? Looking at it in that way, I don't really see how what I said is offensive.

The only exception I can see if when you are in constant pain, physical pain without any hope of getting better due to life-threatening illness and even then I think people should choose to fight it out.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Then you obviously are clueless as to what is actually being discussed. I'm not going to be nice because you're ignorance is quite loathsome.

When a person is seriously "contemplating suicide", we aren't just talking about a cursory existential wandering thought. What we are discussing is when you reach a state of mind where you are regularly, constantly thinking about killing yourself. Where every train of thought converges down the same dark track. If you want to know, ask a question, but don't try to act like you have any clue even remotely about what is being discussed when it's plain as day that you're absolutely clueless.


But that is exactly what I am talking about. Some people get past it faster than others, some people deal with it throughout all their lives. Of course I had my moments of depression. Of course I had my long stint back in adolescence where I thought that everything would be better if I was dead.

I think people who ponder suicide tend to think that their situation is uncommon and therefore special, but it is not. Life sucks for everyone at any point and time. It all comes down to a choice: do you want to live or not? Looking at it in that way, I don't really see how what I said is offensive.

The only exception I can see if when you are in constant pain, physical pain without any hope of getting better due to life-threatening illness and even then I think people should choose to fight it out.


Moments of depression are not even remotely the same thing. Everything you said here is so full of "common sense" that it's utterly useless shit when discussing actual depression and the subject of suicide.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, it was a "long stint" back in my adolescence. I can't say that I know what everyone is feeling down to the last brain chemical activity, but we are all able to empathize. I don't have to be in EXACTLY the same situation to understand how somebody feels.

Sure, maybe I don't know exactly how my friend feels because he hasn't seen his daughter in years since I don't have one of my own, but I can empathize. He appreciated my comments, my suggestions, and I listened to him as he discussed suicide. Yes, I know that one does not simply bust out of deep depression, but if it wasn't possible why even talk about it?

We make such a huge deal out of suicide, but that just serves to make us feel more isolated. I believe it makes us more human than we realize, and I believe that a lot more of us have faced it than we realize or wish to admit. People who feel suicide are not alone, nor should we think that they are strange or some kind of monster.

So, when we try to say "nobody knows any better", why give people the idea that people wouldn't be able to understand them. Wouldn't that just alienate them?
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Wow.


Alright, listen Darqcyde, I didn't mean any offense. Really. I read your comment earlier about arthritis before I posted what I did and if this bothered you in any way I'm sorry if it did.

I don't know if you had people close to you or if you had bad situations. I know I might come off as a bit too optimistic, but that is how I face things. So, sorry if I offended anyone.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
As I said, it was a "long stint" back in my adolescence. I can't say that I know what everyone is feeling down to the last brain chemical activity, but we are all able to empathize. I don't have to be in EXACTLY the same situation to understand how somebody feels.


Not the fucking same at all, and frankly I find your claims of empathy hollow. Familiar with the taste of gunmetal in your mouth? Did you ever swallow a handful of random pills and wash em down with booze? Ever spent months or years feeling disappointed that you woke up every morning?

Quote:

Sure, maybe I don't know exactly how my friend feels because he hasn't seen his daughter in years since I don't have one of my own, but I can empathize.


Yeah, you can, but you certainly can't understand how he feels, you don't have to understand the thought processes to empathize...but when you're dealing with the kind of strong suicidal impulses that lead people to actually commit the act, an ounce of understanding is worth twenty tons of empathy from people you know don't understand at all how you feel.


Quote:

We make such a huge deal out of suicide, but that just serves to make us feel more isolated. I believe it makes us more human than we realize, and I believe that a lot more of us have faced it than we realize or wish to admit. People who feel suicide are not alone, nor should we think that they are strange or some kind of monster.

So, when we try to say "nobody knows any better", why give people the idea that people wouldn't be able to understand them. Wouldn't that just alienate them?


The problem with depression and suicidal tendencies is that everyone who has some empathy suddenly thinks they're the fucking expert on how people should handle it.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are all over me tonight, Monkey. Razz But I do concede on that point. There is nothing more frustrating when someone is trying to tell you how to best handle something when they are not in that particular situation.

So, I could understand from that standpoint why somebody would be mad at what I posted and I do apologize for that.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You take the hits well.


Seriously though, depression and suicide, though everyone thinks they understand....unless they've been through it or done some serious study of the subject matter...they really really don't.

That isn't to say they can't help. Understanding though, that's a whole different ball of wax. What people feeling suicidal need is people who understand what they're going through because empathy is nice for making you feel better in the short term, but actual understanding is what is needed to fix the underlying problem.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, I appreciate that. Very Happy

And that is totally understandable. Me telling people how to deal with pain when I haven't been through it myself is like a bachelor telling me how to deal with my wife and kids. (Well, that times a thousand anyway on the seriousness-and-intensity-o-meter).

I have been able to talk to three friends of mine who contemplated suicide and they did tell me that I truly did help them. It made me feel really good about myself. But then again they weren't so far down that road where they actually tried. So, you are right. I can only empathize and never truly understand.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
thank you for that comic. it illustrates very succinctly what I sometimes have trouble articulating.

....

I'll try to address this better and explain everything a little more when I'm feeling more up to it.


Not the first time I link it here, here is the tumbler list : http://depressioncomix.tumblr.com/, there are more than a few nuggets in it. When you know that it's the same person who did sexylosers, or thin h line, in its days.

Quote:
when it's debilitating pain that leads to the desire for suicide and concern about the effect it will have on loved ones is all that has been stopping you, then the two issues seem very much related.


How I see it is, It can be true or it can be false, it's all up to you actually. We're all familiar with physical pain, it's the one thing we learn to avoid or live with as we grow older. We get burned, we remember not to stick one's arm on the oven's door forever. Some are nagging, like when you have an accident that will give you a personnal weather forecast hip/shoulder for life. Others are awful.

Mental anguish is another matter. Las' point is very well made on that issue. Of course pain can lead to anguish, if you can forgive me for using semantic to separate the two, and vice-versa but it doesn't have to. I see each as a different problem, with it's own solution. That these solutions are at odds with one another or that you don't have time/energy to face neither one is always possible.

From my personnal experience, it's all up to you; no one else should tell you what to do or how to sort your own problems. Most can, and will, not sure those ask the questions you need to ask though.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:

The only exception I can see if when you are in constant pain, physical pain without any hope of getting better due to life-threatening illness and even then I think people should choose to fight it out.


this is actually the subject of the thread - suicide by someone who is not terminal, but can expect nothing other than a life of physical or mental pain.

so that should explain why darq thinks you are clueless. you've kind of missed the entire point.

and i agree with sam. what you can deal with is a decision only you can make, and if you think that decision will cause your loved ones pain, then i think you need to talk to them about it before you do anything. i am very happy that sam's father was able to continue on with life despite MLS, but a different person might not be able to, and i don't want to condemn that person because they can't.
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